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	<title>Comments on: How The Current Health Insurance System Leaves Millions Behind</title>
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	<description>Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</description>
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		<title>By: What will the health care overhaul do to my current coverage? &#124; Health Care</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651&#038;cpage=1#comment-226734</link>
		<dc:creator>What will the health care overhaul do to my current coverage? &#124; Health Care</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651#comment-226734</guid>
		<description>[...] » How The Current Health Insurance System Leaves Millions Behind &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] » How The Current Health Insurance System Leaves Millions Behind &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: &#187; Documents Show How Insurance Companies Misuse Pre-Existing Conditions To Deny Coverage Based On Trivial Problems Liberal Values</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651&#038;cpage=1#comment-223385</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; Documents Show How Insurance Companies Misuse Pre-Existing Conditions To Deny Coverage Based On Trivial Problems Liberal Values</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 20:08:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651#comment-223385</guid>
		<description>[...] Care Health News: How does the current health care system in America work? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Care Health News: How does the current health care system in America work? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: How does the current health care system in America work? &#124; Care Health News</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651&#038;cpage=1#comment-223187</link>
		<dc:creator>How does the current health care system in America work? &#124; Care Health News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 14:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651#comment-223187</guid>
		<description>[...] » How The Current Health Insurance System Leaves Millions Behind &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] » How The Current Health Insurance System Leaves Millions Behind &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eclectic Radical</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651&#038;cpage=1#comment-221414</link>
		<dc:creator>Eclectic Radical</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 05:52:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651#comment-221414</guid>
		<description>Just a few thoughts in response to a couple of quotes, nothing new or profound to drone on about...
 
&quot;The problem is that we like to frame the debate as freedom vs government, but in fact the debate is regulatory capture vs counterbalance. Unless the debate is understood for what it is, then regulatory capture has already won.&quot;
 
Captin, this is one of the best statements of the fundamental argument that I have ever seen. Very well said.
 
&quot;Captin — yeah, that’s why I am not yelling in opposition to having a mandate that requires you to buy a health plan.  I want it separated from employment, though.&quot;
 
Amen. Employer paid insurance is part of the problem, not part of the solution, and the way the Democrats are trying to lean on corporations to cover the costs of their reform plan bothers me a lot. I&#039;ve always felt the single biggest argument for universal coverage was to create a system independent from employer-paid care, and instead we are trying to make employer-paid care the cornerstone of universal coverage. It bugs the hell out of me.
 
 
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a few thoughts in response to a couple of quotes, nothing new or profound to drone on about&#8230;<br />
 <br />
&#8220;The problem is that we like to frame the debate as freedom vs government, but in fact the debate is regulatory capture vs counterbalance. Unless the debate is understood for what it is, then regulatory capture has already won.&#8221;<br />
 <br />
Captin, this is one of the best statements of the fundamental argument that I have ever seen. Very well said.<br />
 <br />
&#8220;Captin — yeah, that’s why I am not yelling in opposition to having a mandate that requires you to buy a health plan.  I want it separated from employment, though.&#8221;<br />
 <br />
Amen. Employer paid insurance is part of the problem, not part of the solution, and the way the Democrats are trying to lean on corporations to cover the costs of their reform plan bothers me a lot. I&#8217;ve always felt the single biggest argument for universal coverage was to create a system independent from employer-paid care, and instead we are trying to make employer-paid care the cornerstone of universal coverage. It bugs the hell out of me.<br />
 <br />
 <br />
 </p>
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		<title>By: Fritz</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651&#038;cpage=1#comment-221401</link>
		<dc:creator>Fritz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 01:11:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651#comment-221401</guid>
		<description>Captin -- yeah, that&#039;s why I am not yelling in opposition to having a mandate that requires you to buy a health plan.  I want it separated from employment, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Captin &#8212; yeah, that&#8217;s why I am not yelling in opposition to having a mandate that requires you to buy a health plan.  I want it separated from employment, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Captin Sarcastic</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651&#038;cpage=1#comment-221394</link>
		<dc:creator>Captin Sarcastic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 22:10:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651#comment-221394</guid>
		<description>Health insurance vs. property insurance: When a person wrecks an uninsured car, they can scrap it or pay to fix it out of their pocket, period. There is no social agreement codified in law that says that regardless of insurance, if a car really needs work, a mechanic must do the work, regardless of payment or the abilty to pay. With health insurance, there is that social agreement that no one requiring necessary care can be turned away because of their inability to pay. 

In that respect, universal healthcare exists now, today, in this country. It&#039;s just that it is a ridiculously ineffecient and incredibly expensive manner of delivering healthcare. 

We really only have two choices, continue as we have been, with everyone eligible for care at the taxpayers expense, once they have exhausted their own resources (or simply don&#039;t pay and forfeit their credit rating). Or, we can decide that we already have mandatory coverage as a result of the societal agreement not to deny care, and create a system that allows  this mandate to be as effecient as possible. Meaning essentially that everyone would be required by law to carry health insurance of some form or another. I would imagine in this scenario, young healthy people could potentially carry catastrophic insurance coverage, with a low premium and high deductible. 

The only alternative is to repeal the social agreement and corresponding laws that say that no one can be denied necessary care. I don&#039;t see this happening, do you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Health insurance vs. property insurance: When a person wrecks an uninsured car, they can scrap it or pay to fix it out of their pocket, period. There is no social agreement codified in law that says that regardless of insurance, if a car really needs work, a mechanic must do the work, regardless of payment or the abilty to pay. With health insurance, there is that social agreement that no one requiring necessary care can be turned away because of their inability to pay. </p>
<p>In that respect, universal healthcare exists now, today, in this country. It&#8217;s just that it is a ridiculously ineffecient and incredibly expensive manner of delivering healthcare. </p>
<p>We really only have two choices, continue as we have been, with everyone eligible for care at the taxpayers expense, once they have exhausted their own resources (or simply don&#8217;t pay and forfeit their credit rating). Or, we can decide that we already have mandatory coverage as a result of the societal agreement not to deny care, and create a system that allows  this mandate to be as effecient as possible. Meaning essentially that everyone would be required by law to carry health insurance of some form or another. I would imagine in this scenario, young healthy people could potentially carry catastrophic insurance coverage, with a low premium and high deductible. </p>
<p>The only alternative is to repeal the social agreement and corresponding laws that say that no one can be denied necessary care. I don&#8217;t see this happening, do you?</p>
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		<title>By: Fritz</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651&#038;cpage=1#comment-221392</link>
		<dc:creator>Fritz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 21:26:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651#comment-221392</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s why I prefer to use a different word.  There are so many differences from standard life insurance or car insurance or property insurance that I think the use of the word &quot;insurance&quot; adds more confusion than clarity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s why I prefer to use a different word.  There are so many differences from standard life insurance or car insurance or property insurance that I think the use of the word &#8220;insurance&#8221; adds more confusion than clarity.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Chusid</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651&#038;cpage=1#comment-221391</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Chusid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 21:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651#comment-221391</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It is not that health insurance isn&#039;t insurance but that health insurance is quite different from property or auto insurance. Those who try to apply conditions for other types of insurance to health insurace are going down a dead end in their discussion of health care.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is not that health insurance isn&#8217;t insurance but that health insurance is quite different from property or auto insurance. Those who try to apply conditions for other types of insurance to health insurace are going down a dead end in their discussion of health care.</p>
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		<title>By: Fritz</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651&#038;cpage=1#comment-221388</link>
		<dc:creator>Fritz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 21:02:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651#comment-221388</guid>
		<description>This is why I try to always talk about &quot;health plans&quot;, not &quot;health insurance&quot;.  If a company is not allowed to differentiate on risk factors (like pre-existing conditions), then it is not insurance.  It would be as if a property damage insurer was not allowed to differentiate between me and someone in New Orleans for flood insurance.
 
But if pre-existing conditions are to not be factored in, then it is really pretty unfair for healthy people to not be required to pay in to health plans until they get sick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is why I try to always talk about &#8220;health plans&#8221;, not &#8220;health insurance&#8221;.  If a company is not allowed to differentiate on risk factors (like pre-existing conditions), then it is not insurance.  It would be as if a property damage insurer was not allowed to differentiate between me and someone in New Orleans for flood insurance.<br />
 <br />
But if pre-existing conditions are to not be factored in, then it is really pretty unfair for healthy people to not be required to pay in to health plans until they get sick.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Chusid</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651&#038;cpage=1#comment-221375</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Chusid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 18:19:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651#comment-221375</guid>
		<description>&quot;The problem is that we like to frame the debate as freedom vs government...&quot;

That is a common problem which leads many libertarians and conservatives to take positions they wouldn&#039;t otherwise take. The right wing noise machine is very good a framing issues as a debate between freedom and government when issues are far more complex than that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The problem is that we like to frame the debate as freedom vs government&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>That is a common problem which leads many libertarians and conservatives to take positions they wouldn&#8217;t otherwise take. The right wing noise machine is very good a framing issues as a debate between freedom and government when issues are far more complex than that.</p>
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		<title>By: Captin Sarcastic</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651&#038;cpage=1#comment-221369</link>
		<dc:creator>Captin Sarcastic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 17:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651#comment-221369</guid>
		<description>I had never considered myself to be a modern liberal. I agreed with the concept of the &quot;free market&quot; being the best way to deliver economic efficienies and protect individual rights. Only over the last 10 years or so have I come to realize that there is no such thing as a free market, and it can&#039;t exist. A free market, must theoretically have a system in place to protect it. A market without such protection would be absolute anarchy, and property would be subject to theft by anyone with the force to take it. 

The problem is the system that protects a free market is a construct, a fiction created to present the illusion of a free market, but because the system which protects must necessarily have the might to take anything by force,  rights exists at the pleasure of it&#039;s source of protection.

The good news is that the markets would collapse if the source of protection overtly abuses it&#039;s might, which would in turn eliminate the source of power of the system protectors. The bad news is that the system can be corrupted internally. This takes the form of regulatory capture, whereby monied interests buy favor with the system protectors, and gain advantages and protections that could never exist in the myth of a free market.

There are some actions that can be take to mitigate regulatory capture, but realistically, it is an inescapable element of any market. 

This is where liberalism comes into play. Not liberalism to eliminate the freedom of the market, though that is the claim of conservatives, but liberalism to counteract the effects of regulatory capture. 

There are examples of this tilt and counterbalance across our history, but I think one good example is the is the management/labor relationship of  the Industrial Revolution. Corporations gained the power to virtually own their labor force through various mechanisms such as company towns. The liberal counterbalance was the protection of unionization.

In the healthcare debate, the insurance industry controls nearly 1/5 of the nations GDP, this industry has used regulatory capture to great success, and is fighting the liberal counterbalance with everything they&#039;ve got, and have been hugely successful for decades, and are on their way to victory in the current debate. The problem is that we like to frame the debate as freedom vs government, but in fact the debate is regulatory capture vs counterbalance. Unless the debate is understood for what it is, then regulatory capture has already won.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had never considered myself to be a modern liberal. I agreed with the concept of the &#8220;free market&#8221; being the best way to deliver economic efficienies and protect individual rights. Only over the last 10 years or so have I come to realize that there is no such thing as a free market, and it can&#8217;t exist. A free market, must theoretically have a system in place to protect it. A market without such protection would be absolute anarchy, and property would be subject to theft by anyone with the force to take it. </p>
<p>The problem is the system that protects a free market is a construct, a fiction created to present the illusion of a free market, but because the system which protects must necessarily have the might to take anything by force,  rights exists at the pleasure of it&#8217;s source of protection.</p>
<p>The good news is that the markets would collapse if the source of protection overtly abuses it&#8217;s might, which would in turn eliminate the source of power of the system protectors. The bad news is that the system can be corrupted internally. This takes the form of regulatory capture, whereby monied interests buy favor with the system protectors, and gain advantages and protections that could never exist in the myth of a free market.</p>
<p>There are some actions that can be take to mitigate regulatory capture, but realistically, it is an inescapable element of any market. </p>
<p>This is where liberalism comes into play. Not liberalism to eliminate the freedom of the market, though that is the claim of conservatives, but liberalism to counteract the effects of regulatory capture. </p>
<p>There are examples of this tilt and counterbalance across our history, but I think one good example is the is the management/labor relationship of  the Industrial Revolution. Corporations gained the power to virtually own their labor force through various mechanisms such as company towns. The liberal counterbalance was the protection of unionization.</p>
<p>In the healthcare debate, the insurance industry controls nearly 1/5 of the nations GDP, this industry has used regulatory capture to great success, and is fighting the liberal counterbalance with everything they&#8217;ve got, and have been hugely successful for decades, and are on their way to victory in the current debate. The problem is that we like to frame the debate as freedom vs government, but in fact the debate is regulatory capture vs counterbalance. Unless the debate is understood for what it is, then regulatory capture has already won.</p>
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		<title>By: Eclectic Radical</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651&#038;cpage=1#comment-221334</link>
		<dc:creator>Eclectic Radical</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 08:56:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651#comment-221334</guid>
		<description>&quot;Government allowing people to own natural resources without paying economic rent for them, the Federal Reserve enabling banks to profit off money they didn’t earn, no bid contracts, occupational licensing requirements that go beyond safety assurance, direct subsidies and narrow-based tax exemptions, and limited liability provisions are to blame for monopolies.&quot;
 
All of these certainly contribute to the ability the largest corporations to establish monopolies or cartels, yes. However, they are not necessary for corporations to establish monopolies. The trusts of the Gilded Age came about in what we, today, would call a genuine &#039;free market.&#039; Moguls not content with just not having to compete with anyone else strove to control as much as possible of every industry on which their own core business depended so as to not have to even do business with anyone else. Lack of competition froze prices at artificially high levels, wages at artificially low levels, and crowded entrepreneurs out of the market entirely. The government had to step in to break up the trusts in order restore monetary circulation to an economy that had become absolutely static, with resources and wealth lumped in a realtively tiny number of hands and much of the nation in grinding poverty.
 
Do we need to end neoconservative &#039;pro-business&#039; policies that are excessively &#039;pro-corporate&#039; and entirely hostile to small business or entrepreneurs trying to enter the market? Yes, of course. However, it is extremely important that we not restore the economic &lt;em&gt;volia&lt;/em&gt; that allows those with the most money to write their own rules and impose them on everyone else.
 
Absolute economic anarchy is not &#039;free&#039;, it&#039;s granting a license to the richest to set up totalitarian control.
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Government allowing people to own natural resources without paying economic rent for them, the Federal Reserve enabling banks to profit off money they didn’t earn, no bid contracts, occupational licensing requirements that go beyond safety assurance, direct subsidies and narrow-based tax exemptions, and limited liability provisions are to blame for monopolies.&#8221;<br />
 <br />
All of these certainly contribute to the ability the largest corporations to establish monopolies or cartels, yes. However, they are not necessary for corporations to establish monopolies. The trusts of the Gilded Age came about in what we, today, would call a genuine &#8216;free market.&#8217; Moguls not content with just not having to compete with anyone else strove to control as much as possible of every industry on which their own core business depended so as to not have to even do business with anyone else. Lack of competition froze prices at artificially high levels, wages at artificially low levels, and crowded entrepreneurs out of the market entirely. The government had to step in to break up the trusts in order restore monetary circulation to an economy that had become absolutely static, with resources and wealth lumped in a realtively tiny number of hands and much of the nation in grinding poverty.<br />
 <br />
Do we need to end neoconservative &#8216;pro-business&#8217; policies that are excessively &#8216;pro-corporate&#8217; and entirely hostile to small business or entrepreneurs trying to enter the market? Yes, of course. However, it is extremely important that we not restore the economic <em>volia</em> that allows those with the most money to write their own rules and impose them on everyone else.<br />
 <br />
Absolute economic anarchy is not &#8216;free&#8217;, it&#8217;s granting a license to the richest to set up totalitarian control.<br />
 </p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651&#038;cpage=1#comment-221325</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 03:23:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651#comment-221325</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t dispute what you&#039;re saying about health insurance needing regulation, but monopolies often arise out of government privilege. By privilege, I mean artificial advantages over others. I&#039;m not talking about natural monopolies, which should be publicly owned.
Government allowing people to own natural resources without paying economic rent for them, the Federal Reserve enabling banks to profit off money they didn&#039;t earn, no bid contracts, occupational licensing requirements that go beyond safety assurance, direct subsidies and narrow-based tax exemptions, and limited liability provisions are to blame for monopolies.
Similar to meat. We have meat, then put all these chemicals, antibiotics, and hormones in it, and then say meat causes cancer. It&#039;s not the meat that causes cancer, it&#039;s what it&#039;s processed with that does. Same with the market and legal privilege</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t dispute what you&#8217;re saying about health insurance needing regulation, but monopolies often arise out of government privilege. By privilege, I mean artificial advantages over others. I&#8217;m not talking about natural monopolies, which should be publicly owned.<br />
Government allowing people to own natural resources without paying economic rent for them, the Federal Reserve enabling banks to profit off money they didn&#8217;t earn, no bid contracts, occupational licensing requirements that go beyond safety assurance, direct subsidies and narrow-based tax exemptions, and limited liability provisions are to blame for monopolies.<br />
Similar to meat. We have meat, then put all these chemicals, antibiotics, and hormones in it, and then say meat causes cancer. It&#8217;s not the meat that causes cancer, it&#8217;s what it&#8217;s processed with that does. Same with the market and legal privilege</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Chusid</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651&#038;cpage=1#comment-221309</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Chusid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 19:47:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651#comment-221309</guid>
		<description>Monopolies arise out of a failings in the free market. Health insurance is something which cannot be handled well by the free market without adequate regulation</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Monopolies arise out of a failings in the free market. Health insurance is something which cannot be handled well by the free market without adequate regulation</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651&#038;cpage=1#comment-221308</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 19:41:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=9651#comment-221308</guid>
		<description>Free trade is a natural way to institute competition where we have monopolies</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Free trade is a natural way to institute competition where we have monopolies</p>
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