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	<title>Comments on: The Unlikelihood of Cutting Health Care Costs</title>
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	<description>Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</description>
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		<title>By: Ron Chusid</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914&#038;cpage=1#comment-220698</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Chusid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 13:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914#comment-220698</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Eclectic,&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;People filing frivilous suits might think they have a legitimate belief they were wronged but in the vast majority of malpractice cases they were not. There is a fine line between being mistaken and malice. Often it turns out that someone files a suit against a doctor because of not liking the doctor&#039;s bedside manner or seeing something the doctor said to them as rude.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;On the other hand, those who legitimately suffer injuries often do not sue. There is very little correlation between malpractice suits and true medical errors or situations in which patients are truly harmed. Society pays the consequences of this warped system with higher medical expenses.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Of course any system to replace the legal system could not be run by the HMO&#039;s.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eclectic,</p>
<p>People filing frivilous suits might think they have a legitimate belief they were wronged but in the vast majority of malpractice cases they were not. There is a fine line between being mistaken and malice. Often it turns out that someone files a suit against a doctor because of not liking the doctor&#8217;s bedside manner or seeing something the doctor said to them as rude.</p>
<p>On the other hand, those who legitimately suffer injuries often do not sue. There is very little correlation between malpractice suits and true medical errors or situations in which patients are truly harmed. Society pays the consequences of this warped system with higher medical expenses.</p>
<p>Of course any system to replace the legal system could not be run by the HMO&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: Eclectic Radical</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914&#038;cpage=1#comment-220678</link>
		<dc:creator>Eclectic Radical</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 09:44:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914#comment-220678</guid>
		<description>&quot;A small percentage of malpractice suits are over legitimate complaints, and even in these cases it is the lawyers who benefit far more than the victims.&quot;
 
This isn&#039;t the first thing you said, but I felt a need to address it first. I&#039;ve heard this one before, in nearly every discussion of tort reform in every venue of the subject. It was tremendously popular when California attempted to pass a law (through ballot initiative) that would have denied legal access to anyone unable to pay for it up front. The arguments then were that contingent fees were a convenient way for the lawyer to soak the plaintiff and that if people had to pay for a lawyer then they would only sue when it was really justified.
 
The facts are that contingent fees are strictly regulated percentages, that all expenses charged must fall within the contingent fee and cannot exceed it, and that the lawyer taking such a case bears the costs until the verdict and must pay all the court costs for the plaintiff if the plaintiff loses. A lawyer who benefits &#039;far more&#039; than his clients is not only himself guilty of actionable malpractice, but also faces fraud charges that could lead to prison and ethics violations that could lead to disbarment.
 
On the flip side, lawyers who represent clients who can pay for service face no limits but what the client is willing to pay. Because to set legal fees by scale would be &#039;restraint of trade&#039; and that is socialist. In such a case, yes, many attorneys benefit far more than their clients.
 
I&#039;ve always thought conservatives had it backwards and the law should require all lawyers to work on a contingent basis.
 
That rant done with...
&quot;A mechanism for treating victims of medical errors should also be established independent of the tort system. If we have universal health care we will no longer need big settlements to ensure that people receive medical care that is necessary to remedy problems from true malpractice. We also need an objective way to compensate people who have legitimate need for additional assistance beyond routine health care as a result of malpractice.&quot;
 
I could support such a system if it were a government agency. Conservatives argued for such a system and wanted it amended to the patients&#039; bill of rights, together with a ban on patients suing their HMOs. Their solution was to have it run by the HMOs. I&#039;m willing to have this fight again, but it would be important not to allow the right wing to make the oversight system subject to the insurance companies.
 
I&#039;d also be concerned about the risk of a presumption of falsehood. No one ever feels their complaint is &#039;frivolous&#039; and most people seeking redress have a legitimate belief they were wronged, and being mistaken is not the same as malice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A small percentage of malpractice suits are over legitimate complaints, and even in these cases it is the lawyers who benefit far more than the victims.&#8221;<br />
 <br />
This isn&#8217;t the first thing you said, but I felt a need to address it first. I&#8217;ve heard this one before, in nearly every discussion of tort reform in every venue of the subject. It was tremendously popular when California attempted to pass a law (through ballot initiative) that would have denied legal access to anyone unable to pay for it up front. The arguments then were that contingent fees were a convenient way for the lawyer to soak the plaintiff and that if people had to pay for a lawyer then they would only sue when it was really justified.<br />
 <br />
The facts are that contingent fees are strictly regulated percentages, that all expenses charged must fall within the contingent fee and cannot exceed it, and that the lawyer taking such a case bears the costs until the verdict and must pay all the court costs for the plaintiff if the plaintiff loses. A lawyer who benefits &#8216;far more&#8217; than his clients is not only himself guilty of actionable malpractice, but also faces fraud charges that could lead to prison and ethics violations that could lead to disbarment.<br />
 <br />
On the flip side, lawyers who represent clients who can pay for service face no limits but what the client is willing to pay. Because to set legal fees by scale would be &#8216;restraint of trade&#8217; and that is socialist. In such a case, yes, many attorneys benefit far more than their clients.<br />
 <br />
I&#8217;ve always thought conservatives had it backwards and the law should require all lawyers to work on a contingent basis.<br />
 <br />
That rant done with&#8230;<br />
&#8220;A mechanism for treating victims of medical errors should also be established independent of the tort system. If we have universal health care we will no longer need big settlements to ensure that people receive medical care that is necessary to remedy problems from true malpractice. We also need an objective way to compensate people who have legitimate need for additional assistance beyond routine health care as a result of malpractice.&#8221;<br />
 <br />
I could support such a system if it were a government agency. Conservatives argued for such a system and wanted it amended to the patients&#8217; bill of rights, together with a ban on patients suing their HMOs. Their solution was to have it run by the HMOs. I&#8217;m willing to have this fight again, but it would be important not to allow the right wing to make the oversight system subject to the insurance companies.<br />
 <br />
I&#8217;d also be concerned about the risk of a presumption of falsehood. No one ever feels their complaint is &#8216;frivolous&#8217; and most people seeking redress have a legitimate belief they were wronged, and being mistaken is not the same as malice.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Chusid</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914&#038;cpage=1#comment-220634</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Chusid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 14:07:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914#comment-220634</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;Depending on the stringency of the tort reform, genuine victims of incompetence, negligence, or depraved indifference might lose out as well.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Probably not (depending upon how it is done). Malpractice cases have little to do with poor medical care and such cases do very little to benefit actual victims of medical negligence. Most malpractice suits arise because people just don&#039;t like their doctor, have unrealistic views as to outcomes, or are looking for easy money. A small percentage of malpractice suits are over legitimate complaints, and even in these cases it is the lawyers who benefit far more than the victims. It would be best to take medical malpractice entirely out of the court system due to the added costs for medical care which arise from this system.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Investigating actual cases of medical errors would be done better outside of the legal system due to both the poor correlation between malpractice suits and actual malpractice and the development of a culture of hiding errors out of a fear of suits which makes them harder to fix. Most medical errors are a result of system problems which could be better addressed without the fear of law suits hanging over any attempts to look for problems.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;A mechanism for treating victims of medical errors should also be established independent of the tort system. If we have universal health care we will no longer need big settlements to ensure that people receive medical care that is necessary to remedy problems from true malpractice. We also need an objective way to compensate people who have legitimate need for additional assistance beyond routine health care as a result of malpractice.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Depending on the stringency of the tort reform, genuine victims of incompetence, negligence, or depraved indifference might lose out as well.&#8221;</p>
<p>Probably not (depending upon how it is done). Malpractice cases have little to do with poor medical care and such cases do very little to benefit actual victims of medical negligence. Most malpractice suits arise because people just don&#8217;t like their doctor, have unrealistic views as to outcomes, or are looking for easy money. A small percentage of malpractice suits are over legitimate complaints, and even in these cases it is the lawyers who benefit far more than the victims. It would be best to take medical malpractice entirely out of the court system due to the added costs for medical care which arise from this system.</p>
<p>Investigating actual cases of medical errors would be done better outside of the legal system due to both the poor correlation between malpractice suits and actual malpractice and the development of a culture of hiding errors out of a fear of suits which makes them harder to fix. Most medical errors are a result of system problems which could be better addressed without the fear of law suits hanging over any attempts to look for problems.</p>
<p>A mechanism for treating victims of medical errors should also be established independent of the tort system. If we have universal health care we will no longer need big settlements to ensure that people receive medical care that is necessary to remedy problems from true malpractice. We also need an objective way to compensate people who have legitimate need for additional assistance beyond routine health care as a result of malpractice.</p>
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		<title>By: Eclectic Radical</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914&#038;cpage=1#comment-220632</link>
		<dc:creator>Eclectic Radical</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 13:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914#comment-220632</guid>
		<description>&quot;If the goal is to save money, this is an area where we can save some money without denying anyone of needed care or limiting choice. Only the trial lawyers would lose out with malpractice reform.&quot;
 
Depending on the stringency of the tort reform, genuine victims of incompetence, negligence, or depraved indifference might lose out as well. Tort reform is an area where &#039;slippery slop&#039; arguments have a lot of validity. The balancing act necessary to determine genuine causes for legal action versus &#039;frivolous claims&#039; is a very tricky one. On general principle, I favor erring on the side of protecting citizens&#039; rights to legal redress over protections from liability in questionable situations. There is a reason we have judges and legislating standards of action is very close to Congress leaving its own proper role in government and encroaching on the Judicial Branch.
 
There is also the problem that the principle means of tort reform advocated, either specifically enacting a broad immunity from liability for hospitals and HMOs or enacting procedural regulations that deny legal aid to anyone unable to pay for it up front, are entirely unacceptable.
 
It&#039;s true that there are a lot of situations in this country where legal action is taken improperly and concepts of liability are abused. However, no one has yet offered a system of tort reform that both protects genuine claims and the rights of those with genuine claims but limited economic means.
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If the goal is to save money, this is an area where we can save some money without denying anyone of needed care or limiting choice. Only the trial lawyers would lose out with malpractice reform.&#8221;<br />
 <br />
Depending on the stringency of the tort reform, genuine victims of incompetence, negligence, or depraved indifference might lose out as well. Tort reform is an area where &#8217;slippery slop&#8217; arguments have a lot of validity. The balancing act necessary to determine genuine causes for legal action versus &#8216;frivolous claims&#8217; is a very tricky one. On general principle, I favor erring on the side of protecting citizens&#8217; rights to legal redress over protections from liability in questionable situations. There is a reason we have judges and legislating standards of action is very close to Congress leaving its own proper role in government and encroaching on the Judicial Branch.<br />
 <br />
There is also the problem that the principle means of tort reform advocated, either specifically enacting a broad immunity from liability for hospitals and HMOs or enacting procedural regulations that deny legal aid to anyone unable to pay for it up front, are entirely unacceptable.<br />
 <br />
It&#8217;s true that there are a lot of situations in this country where legal action is taken improperly and concepts of liability are abused. However, no one has yet offered a system of tort reform that both protects genuine claims and the rights of those with genuine claims but limited economic means.<br />
 </p>
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		<title>By: Ron Chusid</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914&#038;cpage=1#comment-220568</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Chusid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 15:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914#comment-220568</guid>
		<description>Defensive medicine is not a leading cost of medical care with conservatives often exaggerating the cost. Still, as I&#039;ve discussed in other posts, this is something which should be addressed. If the goal is to save money, this is an area where we can save some money without denying anyone of needed care or limiting choice. Only the trial lawyers would lose out with malpractice reform.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Defensive medicine is not a leading cost of medical care with conservatives often exaggerating the cost. Still, as I&#8217;ve discussed in other posts, this is something which should be addressed. If the goal is to save money, this is an area where we can save some money without denying anyone of needed care or limiting choice. Only the trial lawyers would lose out with malpractice reform.</p>
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		<title>By: Susieq</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914&#038;cpage=1#comment-220567</link>
		<dc:creator>Susieq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 15:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914#comment-220567</guid>
		<description>Nowhere in these discussions or in the house bill (which, unlike our legislators, I have read) is there mention of tort reform.  Defensive medicine is a leading cost of medical care today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nowhere in these discussions or in the house bill (which, unlike our legislators, I have read) is there mention of tort reform.  Defensive medicine is a leading cost of medical care today.</p>
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		<title>By: More on Increasing Health Care Costs - Liberal Values - Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914&#038;cpage=1#comment-214420</link>
		<dc:creator>More on Increasing Health Care Costs - Liberal Values - Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914#comment-214420</guid>
		<description>[...] an earlier post on health care costs I noted that decreasing health care spending will be difficult, and that [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] an earlier post on health care costs I noted that decreasing health care spending will be difficult, and that [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Chusid</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914&#038;cpage=1#comment-214414</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Chusid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:21:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914#comment-214414</guid>
		<description>The health care plans on the table don&#039;t include the government paying for everything. Such caps would be far easier in a British type system. Besides, that would not make very much of a difference on overall health care costs. It would also be difficult considering we have a shortage of nurses and primary care physicians which would only be worse if we had universal health care. There is potential room to cut costs in the income of some subspecialties but that won&#039;t result in large enough savings to have much impact.

One of many problems with the conservative gripe is that they are already paying more for health care due to the cost shifting because of the uninsured. It would be better to do this in a more open and more cost effective manner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The health care plans on the table don&#8217;t include the government paying for everything. Such caps would be far easier in a British type system. Besides, that would not make very much of a difference on overall health care costs. It would also be difficult considering we have a shortage of nurses and primary care physicians which would only be worse if we had universal health care. There is potential room to cut costs in the income of some subspecialties but that won&#8217;t result in large enough savings to have much impact.</p>
<p>One of many problems with the conservative gripe is that they are already paying more for health care due to the cost shifting because of the uninsured. It would be better to do this in a more open and more cost effective manner.</p>
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		<title>By: bigfishh</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914&#038;cpage=1#comment-214412</link>
		<dc:creator>bigfishh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:03:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914#comment-214412</guid>
		<description>Two points:
1. it is not to hard to imagine the govenrnment implementing pay caps on doctors, nurses, and others.  Once the government is paying f or everything they will convert the medical industry&#039;s pay scale to the public sector pay scale. 
2. one conservative gripe about government funded health care is that one group of people will be taxed to provide a free benefit to another group of people.  This is the sort of policy that tears a democracy apart. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two points:<br />
1. it is not to hard to imagine the govenrnment implementing pay caps on doctors, nurses, and others.  Once the government is paying f or everything they will convert the medical industry&#8217;s pay scale to the public sector pay scale. <br />
2. one conservative gripe about government funded health care is that one group of people will be taxed to provide a free benefit to another group of people.  This is the sort of policy that tears a democracy apart. </p>
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		<title>By: Eclectic Radical</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914&#038;cpage=1#comment-214382</link>
		<dc:creator>Eclectic Radical</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 06:30:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=7914#comment-214382</guid>
		<description>The fundamental problem with health care reform was brilliantly stated by Ms. McCardle, though I doubt she and I agree on the conclusions to be drawn from that problem. I certainly don&#039;t agree that &#039;there is no obvious lack.&#039; The statement even shows how out of touch she is.

Nevertheless, as I said, she captured the fundamental problem perfectly:

Americans with access to quality health care would rather deny there is a problem (and ignore the human cost of them problem, and the economic cost of meeting the human cost of the problem) than have to spend more time in the waiting room than they already do.

The problem is that those who cannot get into the waiting room at all would gladly wait if they could just get inside.

I am not saying that anyone enjoys all-day wait-times to see a doctor or that waiting should be any longer than absolutely necessary, but I am saying that the fundamental conservative/libertarian argument against meaningful health care reform is &#039;I would rather require someone else to go without care entirely than to give up any convenience.&#039;

I agree that costs are not likely to go down, in the sense that many people believe they can be so drastically reduced. I am all in favor of society sharing that cost far more efficiently, so that society&#039;s members can share access to medical care far more equitably.

It &lt;strong&gt;is&lt;/strong&gt; worth noting, however, that costs can be greatly &lt;strong&gt;managed&lt;/strong&gt; by eliminating the &#039;for profit&#039; element of medical care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fundamental problem with health care reform was brilliantly stated by Ms. McCardle, though I doubt she and I agree on the conclusions to be drawn from that problem. I certainly don&#8217;t agree that &#8216;there is no obvious lack.&#8217; The statement even shows how out of touch she is.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, as I said, she captured the fundamental problem perfectly:</p>
<p>Americans with access to quality health care would rather deny there is a problem (and ignore the human cost of them problem, and the economic cost of meeting the human cost of the problem) than have to spend more time in the waiting room than they already do.</p>
<p>The problem is that those who cannot get into the waiting room at all would gladly wait if they could just get inside.</p>
<p>I am not saying that anyone enjoys all-day wait-times to see a doctor or that waiting should be any longer than absolutely necessary, but I am saying that the fundamental conservative/libertarian argument against meaningful health care reform is &#8216;I would rather require someone else to go without care entirely than to give up any convenience.&#8217;</p>
<p>I agree that costs are not likely to go down, in the sense that many people believe they can be so drastically reduced. I am all in favor of society sharing that cost far more efficiently, so that society&#8217;s members can share access to medical care far more equitably.</p>
<p>It <strong>is</strong> worth noting, however, that costs can be greatly <strong>managed</strong> by eliminating the &#8216;for profit&#8217; element of medical care.</p>
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