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	<title>Comments on: Congressional Budget Updates Estimates on Savings From Malpractice Reform</title>
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	<description>Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</description>
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		<title>By: Ron Chusid</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=10517&#038;cpage=1#comment-224826</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Chusid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 17:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=10517#comment-224826</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;You can&#039;t determine if something is malpractice without understanding the medical issues. The questions which come up are far more questions of whether medical care is appropriate than questions about what the law says.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The unnecessary tests are often done for medical-legal reasons (defensive medicine).  Doctors will sometimes try to  limit this when someone is uninsured to keep the patient from going too far into debt. In cases like this I&#039;ll typically offer the tests and then document if the patient refuses.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Suing for nonpayment of bills is far more straight forward than suing for malpractice. Malpractice suits also create a situation which is harmful for everyone (other than the lawyers) as cost of health care is increased.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can&#8217;t determine if something is malpractice without understanding the medical issues. The questions which come up are far more questions of whether medical care is appropriate than questions about what the law says.</p>
<p>The unnecessary tests are often done for medical-legal reasons (defensive medicine).  Doctors will sometimes try to  limit this when someone is uninsured to keep the patient from going too far into debt. In cases like this I&#8217;ll typically offer the tests and then document if the patient refuses.</p>
<p>Suing for nonpayment of bills is far more straight forward than suing for malpractice. Malpractice suits also create a situation which is harmful for everyone (other than the lawyers) as cost of health care is increased.</p>
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		<title>By: Eclectic Radical</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=10517&#038;cpage=1#comment-224825</link>
		<dc:creator>Eclectic Radical</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 17:33:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=10517#comment-224825</guid>
		<description>&#039;Having judges as opposed to juries decide might help–but only if the judge has some understanding of the medical issues.&#039;
 
Actually, in most states malpractice has a very specific definition at law. Deciding whether the definition of malpractice has been met is as much (or more) about understanding the law than understanding the medical issues. Naturally, I&#039;d favor a specialized court for malpractice cases with judges experienced/educated in the medical issues, and a neutral Friend of the Court with appropriate medical expertise can be of great assistance to judges as they gain experience.
 
I don&#039;t want to completely dismiss the doctor&#039;s side of the argument. Yet I&#039;ve seen real or borderline malpractice based on the patient&#039;s ability to pay quite frequently around here. Doctors here frequently avoid assigning tests when those tests will not be fully reimbursed, while ordering sloughs of tests for insured patients. If the tests are necessary, why is the doctor taking the risk of cutting corners without them? If unncessary, why is the doctor wasting an insurance company&#039;s money?
 
The hospital up the road (or rather the collection agency they own) regularly sues patients. Stripping patients of their rights to the same recourse at law rubs against my left wing grain.
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Having judges as opposed to juries decide might help–but only if the judge has some understanding of the medical issues.&#8217;<br />
 <br />
Actually, in most states malpractice has a very specific definition at law. Deciding whether the definition of malpractice has been met is as much (or more) about understanding the law than understanding the medical issues. Naturally, I&#8217;d favor a specialized court for malpractice cases with judges experienced/educated in the medical issues, and a neutral Friend of the Court with appropriate medical expertise can be of great assistance to judges as they gain experience.<br />
 <br />
I don&#8217;t want to completely dismiss the doctor&#8217;s side of the argument. Yet I&#8217;ve seen real or borderline malpractice based on the patient&#8217;s ability to pay quite frequently around here. Doctors here frequently avoid assigning tests when those tests will not be fully reimbursed, while ordering sloughs of tests for insured patients. If the tests are necessary, why is the doctor taking the risk of cutting corners without them? If unncessary, why is the doctor wasting an insurance company&#8217;s money?<br />
 <br />
The hospital up the road (or rather the collection agency they own) regularly sues patients. Stripping patients of their rights to the same recourse at law rubs against my left wing grain.<br />
 </p>
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		<title>By: Ron Chusid</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=10517&#038;cpage=1#comment-224821</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Chusid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 13:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=10517#comment-224821</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The description as &quot;frivolous&quot; has stuck because that is the perfect word for a tremendous number of law suits. Many are filed because a patient just dislikes the doctor they saw, or are unhappy about the outcome even if there was no medical negligence. Lawyers know that taking on frivolous suits might not pay off but it is often worth the gamble--such as in the situation you note of juries feeling sorry for someone. John Edwards made a fortune this way.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Having judges as opposed to juries decide might help--but only if the judge has some understanding of the medical issues. Otherwise a judge could also feel sorry for someone and be misled by attorneys,  even if they are less likely to be influenced than juries.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Changes at the point of trial will only help if this dissuades attorneys from taking frivolous suits in the first case. Most cases do not make it to trial due to lack of merit, and of those which do a large number lose. The problem is not just the cases when their is victory with a frivolous suit but the risk of being sued at all. Doctors change behavior not just to avoid suits but to reduce the risk of a frivolous suit being filed at all. Defensive medicine is practiced to have things so well documented with every test in the book that an attorney won&#039;t think it is worth risking a suit.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The description as &#8220;frivolous&#8221; has stuck because that is the perfect word for a tremendous number of law suits. Many are filed because a patient just dislikes the doctor they saw, or are unhappy about the outcome even if there was no medical negligence. Lawyers know that taking on frivolous suits might not pay off but it is often worth the gamble&#8211;such as in the situation you note of juries feeling sorry for someone. John Edwards made a fortune this way.</p>
<p>Having judges as opposed to juries decide might help&#8211;but only if the judge has some understanding of the medical issues. Otherwise a judge could also feel sorry for someone and be misled by attorneys,  even if they are less likely to be influenced than juries.</p>
<p>Changes at the point of trial will only help if this dissuades attorneys from taking frivolous suits in the first case. Most cases do not make it to trial due to lack of merit, and of those which do a large number lose. The problem is not just the cases when their is victory with a frivolous suit but the risk of being sued at all. Doctors change behavior not just to avoid suits but to reduce the risk of a frivolous suit being filed at all. Defensive medicine is practiced to have things so well documented with every test in the book that an attorney won&#8217;t think it is worth risking a suit.</p>
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		<title>By: Eclectic Radical</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=10517&#038;cpage=1#comment-224805</link>
		<dc:creator>Eclectic Radical</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=10517#comment-224805</guid>
		<description> 
I&#039;ll be totally honest, because I&#039;m not saying anything Ron hasn&#039;t seen me say before. :)
 
I don&#039;t like award caps, I don&#039;t like lawsuits being defined as &#039;frivolous&#039; in the casual manner they frequently are (they are rarely frivolous to the people suing and lawyers know &lt;strong&gt;truly&lt;/strong&gt; &#039;frivolous&#039; cases aren&#039;t worth taking), and I don&#039;t like the ideas many of the conservatives who advocate tort reform communicate in their tort reform proposals.
 
I&#039;m not totally opposed to all tort reform, but talk of tort reform makes me extremely nervous because four out of five proposals will be written to shield corporations from liability rather than to truly prevent frivolous suits.
 
I will say that I don&#039;t believe juries should decide most civil cases. Civil cases are about points of law that juries frequently are not equipped to properly understand. Juries may feel sorry for a kid in the wheelchair but the doctor may have done everything right and the kid had complications outside the doctor&#039;s control. In such cases, the sympathy is likely to outweigh the point of law.
 
Currently many cases can be decided by judges under special circumstances that exclude appeals. This is called &#039;binding arbitration&#039; and both sides agree to let the judge make the final decision and to abide by it. I believe civil cases, across the board, should be decided by a modified form of binding arbitration that allows appellate courts  to conduct judicial review of such decisions (and appeal to higher courts when necessary.)
 
I think that would do a lot more to solve &lt;strong&gt;real&lt;/strong&gt; problems with the system than most of the tort reform proposals made by the right.
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> <br />
I&#8217;ll be totally honest, because I&#8217;m not saying anything Ron hasn&#8217;t seen me say before. <img src='http://liberalvaluesblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 <br />
I don&#8217;t like award caps, I don&#8217;t like lawsuits being defined as &#8216;frivolous&#8217; in the casual manner they frequently are (they are rarely frivolous to the people suing and lawyers know <strong>truly</strong> &#8216;frivolous&#8217; cases aren&#8217;t worth taking), and I don&#8217;t like the ideas many of the conservatives who advocate tort reform communicate in their tort reform proposals.<br />
 <br />
I&#8217;m not totally opposed to all tort reform, but talk of tort reform makes me extremely nervous because four out of five proposals will be written to shield corporations from liability rather than to truly prevent frivolous suits.<br />
 <br />
I will say that I don&#8217;t believe juries should decide most civil cases. Civil cases are about points of law that juries frequently are not equipped to properly understand. Juries may feel sorry for a kid in the wheelchair but the doctor may have done everything right and the kid had complications outside the doctor&#8217;s control. In such cases, the sympathy is likely to outweigh the point of law.<br />
 <br />
Currently many cases can be decided by judges under special circumstances that exclude appeals. This is called &#8216;binding arbitration&#8217; and both sides agree to let the judge make the final decision and to abide by it. I believe civil cases, across the board, should be decided by a modified form of binding arbitration that allows appellate courts  to conduct judicial review of such decisions (and appeal to higher courts when necessary.)<br />
 <br />
I think that would do a lot more to solve <strong>real</strong> problems with the system than most of the tort reform proposals made by the right.<br />
 </p>
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		<title>By: Ron Chusid</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=10517&#038;cpage=1#comment-224763</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Chusid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 16:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=10517#comment-224763</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Keep in mind that the proposals to cap malpractice awards are for pain and suffering--not for true economic damages. This is not a total limit on liability.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;You misunderstand where defensive medicine comes from. It does not come from any lack of real medical knowledge. It comes from knowing that, even when doctors have followed medical guidelines, plaintiffs have still won cases based upon lawyers convincing juries that doctors should have ordered a certain test. The cost of defensive medicine most certainly does come because of the tort rules and not from any lack of knowledge on the part of the doctor.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Among the reforms which I would want, even more than caps, would be to make following generally accepted medical guidelines an absolute defense, and demonstrating this should prevent the filing of a suit. Some states already have hurdles that must be overcome to weed out frivolous suits even before a suit can be filed, and I would like this added.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keep in mind that the proposals to cap malpractice awards are for pain and suffering&#8211;not for true economic damages. This is not a total limit on liability.</p>
<p>You misunderstand where defensive medicine comes from. It does not come from any lack of real medical knowledge. It comes from knowing that, even when doctors have followed medical guidelines, plaintiffs have still won cases based upon lawyers convincing juries that doctors should have ordered a certain test. The cost of defensive medicine most certainly does come because of the tort rules and not from any lack of knowledge on the part of the doctor.</p>
<p>Among the reforms which I would want, even more than caps, would be to make following generally accepted medical guidelines an absolute defense, and demonstrating this should prevent the filing of a suit. Some states already have hurdles that must be overcome to weed out frivolous suits even before a suit can be filed, and I would like this added.</p>
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		<title>By: Captin Sarcastic</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=10517&#038;cpage=1#comment-224760</link>
		<dc:creator>Captin Sarcastic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=10517#comment-224760</guid>
		<description>The idea of limiting liability to a specific dollar amount concerns me deeply.  I believe that most business business people are general good people, but we all know the ambition and agressiveness it takes to get the top of any business and we know that the guy who wins the &quot;most ethical employee&quot; award is not the guy who gets promoted. Though high ethical standards and ambition are not mutually exclusive, let&#039;s just say they are divergent. I believe that potentially unlimited pain keeps some of these folks honest. Corporations love the idea of a sum specific liability because it allows them to precisely weigh risk vs. reward. If they have a policy that they know will cause the deaths of some certain number of people, and they can determine that the cost of continuing this policy will cost them X, and the cost fixing the policy will cost them Y, they will be able to quickly determine if Y&lt;X, keep killing people. 

I realize that this opens the door for frivolous lawsuits, but I don&#039;t think frivolous lawsuits are as prevelant as tort reform advocates would lead us to believe.  I would also suggest that tort reform will not really change anything with respect to actual care. Care providers careers will still and always be on the line for the decisions they make, so while some may make the argument that defensive medicine practices are the result of doctors conducting tests to save liability dollars, we know instinctively that this is not the case, to the extent it is practiced by doctors, it is done to protect future earnings. And those dollars would still be at risk if the doctor makes avoidable mistakes that cost lives. 

A doctor that conducts tests to protect themselves is trading kitchen sink medicine for actual medical knowledge. If the doctor lacks the specific knowledge for why a specific test is unnecessary, they might do the test anyway, but that is not a failure caused by the tort rules, but rather by the doctors lack of knowledge. I will cede that there is an enormous amount of information available and that doctors cannot possibly be aware of all of it, but again, limiting liability will not help to improve this at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The idea of limiting liability to a specific dollar amount concerns me deeply.  I believe that most business business people are general good people, but we all know the ambition and agressiveness it takes to get the top of any business and we know that the guy who wins the &#8220;most ethical employee&#8221; award is not the guy who gets promoted. Though high ethical standards and ambition are not mutually exclusive, let&#8217;s just say they are divergent. I believe that potentially unlimited pain keeps some of these folks honest. Corporations love the idea of a sum specific liability because it allows them to precisely weigh risk vs. reward. If they have a policy that they know will cause the deaths of some certain number of people, and they can determine that the cost of continuing this policy will cost them X, and the cost fixing the policy will cost them Y, they will be able to quickly determine if Y&lt;X, keep killing people. </p>
<p>I realize that this opens the door for frivolous lawsuits, but I don&#8217;t think frivolous lawsuits are as prevelant as tort reform advocates would lead us to believe.  I would also suggest that tort reform will not really change anything with respect to actual care. Care providers careers will still and always be on the line for the decisions they make, so while some may make the argument that defensive medicine practices are the result of doctors conducting tests to save liability dollars, we know instinctively that this is not the case, to the extent it is practiced by doctors, it is done to protect future earnings. And those dollars would still be at risk if the doctor makes avoidable mistakes that cost lives. </p>
<p>A doctor that conducts tests to protect themselves is trading kitchen sink medicine for actual medical knowledge. If the doctor lacks the specific knowledge for why a specific test is unnecessary, they might do the test anyway, but that is not a failure caused by the tort rules, but rather by the doctors lack of knowledge. I will cede that there is an enormous amount of information available and that doctors cannot possibly be aware of all of it, but again, limiting liability will not help to improve this at all.</p>
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		<title>By: &#8220;MUST READ…..CBO: Tort reform would reduce deficit by $54 billion&#8221; and related posts &#171; Composition4u.info Blogs</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=10517&#038;cpage=1#comment-224746</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;MUST READ…..CBO: Tort reform would reduce deficit by $54 billion&#8221; and related posts &#171; Composition4u.info Blogs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 07:28:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=10517#comment-224746</guid>
		<description>[...] Congressional Budget Updates Estimates on Savings From Malpractice Reform&#160;-&#160;Liberal Values [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Congressional Budget Updates Estimates on Savings From Malpractice Reform&nbsp;-&nbsp;Liberal Values [...]</p>
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		<title>By: » Congressional Budget Updates Estimates on Savings From &#8230; (via postie) &#124; Kantaas.Com</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=10517&#038;cpage=1#comment-224744</link>
		<dc:creator>» Congressional Budget Updates Estimates on Savings From &#8230; (via postie) &#124; Kantaas.Com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 07:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] » Congressional Budget Updates Estimates on Savings From &#8230; [...]</description>
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