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	<title>Comments on: Clinton, Obama, Krugman, and Free Choice</title>
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	<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2008/02/04/clinton-obama-krugman-and-free-choice/</link>
	<description>Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</description>
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		<title>By: &#187; Obama and The Health Care Legislation Liberal Values</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2008/02/04/clinton-obama-krugman-and-free-choice/comment-page-1/#comment-229077</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; Obama and The Health Care Legislation Liberal Values</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 03:06:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2837#comment-229077</guid>
		<description>[...] process has led to some changes. A key difference is the individual mandate. While I wish Obama had stuck with his opposition, the change is understandable. Ezra Klein, whose understanding of  the realities of health care in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] process has led to some changes. A key difference is the individual mandate. While I wish Obama had stuck with his opposition, the change is understandable. Ezra Klein, whose understanding of  the realities of health care in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: &#187; Growing Disagreement On The Left Over The Senate Health Care Bill Liberal Values</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2008/02/04/clinton-obama-krugman-and-free-choice/comment-page-1/#comment-228892</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; Growing Disagreement On The Left Over The Senate Health Care Bill Liberal Values</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 00:51:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2837#comment-228892</guid>
		<description>[...] that individuals purchase insurance without offering choices such as the public option. I have opposed the individual mandate throughout the health care debate. Now many on the left are arguing against this, including [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that individuals purchase insurance without offering choices such as the public option. I have opposed the individual mandate throughout the health care debate. Now many on the left are arguing against this, including [...]</p>
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		<title>By: &#187; Mandates Are Once Again An Issue Liberal Values</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2008/02/04/clinton-obama-krugman-and-free-choice/comment-page-1/#comment-223659</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; Mandates Are Once Again An Issue Liberal Values</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2837#comment-223659</guid>
		<description>[...] The Latest Liberal Blogs: Mandates, Government and Liberty [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Latest Liberal Blogs: Mandates, Government and Liberty [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mandates, Government and Liberty &#124; The Latest Liberal Blogs</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2008/02/04/clinton-obama-krugman-and-free-choice/comment-page-1/#comment-223651</link>
		<dc:creator>Mandates, Government and Liberty &#124; The Latest Liberal Blogs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2837#comment-223651</guid>
		<description>[...] Joyner writes about the new GOP opposition to mandates that I posted about yesterday. He links to a blast from the 2008 primary past by Ron Chusid defending then candidate Obama&#8217;s opposition to mandates: Using mandates to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Joyner writes about the new GOP opposition to mandates that I posted about yesterday. He links to a blast from the 2008 primary past by Ron Chusid defending then candidate Obama&#8217;s opposition to mandates: Using mandates to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Health Insurance Mandates</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2008/02/04/clinton-obama-krugman-and-free-choice/comment-page-1/#comment-223642</link>
		<dc:creator>Health Insurance Mandates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2837#comment-223642</guid>
		<description>[...] Ron Chusid summarizes the intra-liberal debate on the subject in Liberal Values, February 2008 Paul Krugman continues his vendetta against Barack Obama’s health care plan due to its lack of mandates. The consequence of lacking mandates is unclear as nobody knows for sure how many people would still go without insurance if it was affordable but voluntary, and nobody really knows for sure how many people would remain uninsured despite mandates. It does seem reasonable to assume that achieving near one hundred percent compliance with a mandate would require yet another new bureaucracy and the expenditure of funds which might better be used for actual health care. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Ron Chusid summarizes the intra-liberal debate on the subject in Liberal Values, February 2008 Paul Krugman continues his vendetta against Barack Obama’s health care plan due to its lack of mandates. The consequence of lacking mandates is unclear as nobody knows for sure how many people would still go without insurance if it was affordable but voluntary, and nobody really knows for sure how many people would remain uninsured despite mandates. It does seem reasonable to assume that achieving near one hundred percent compliance with a mandate would require yet another new bureaucracy and the expenditure of funds which might better be used for actual health care. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Hillary Clinton Continues Negative Campaign - Liberal Values - Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2008/02/04/clinton-obama-krugman-and-free-choice/comment-page-1/#comment-197065</link>
		<dc:creator>Hillary Clinton Continues Negative Campaign - Liberal Values - Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 23:31:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2837#comment-197065</guid>
		<description>[...] plan includes everyone except those who voluntarily do not want to be included. That&#8217;s called choice&#8211;what Democrats support on issues such as abortion and should support on private economic [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] plan includes everyone except those who voluntarily do not want to be included. That&#8217;s called choice&#8211;what Democrats support on issues such as abortion and should support on private economic [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Hillary Clinton vs. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness - Liberal Values - Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2008/02/04/clinton-obama-krugman-and-free-choice/comment-page-1/#comment-188785</link>
		<dc:creator>Hillary Clinton vs. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness - Liberal Values - Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 02:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2837#comment-188785</guid>
		<description>[...] be framed as an anti-freedom Democrat versus a pro-freedom Republican most likely the Republicans will win. As is Ed, I&#8217;ve often been critical of Clinton&#8217;s nanny state [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] be framed as an anti-freedom Democrat versus a pro-freedom Republican most likely the Republicans will win. As is Ed, I&#8217;ve often been critical of Clinton&#8217;s nanny state [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Obama&#8217;s Experience - Liberal Values - Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2008/02/04/clinton-obama-krugman-and-free-choice/comment-page-1/#comment-176739</link>
		<dc:creator>Obama&#8217;s Experience - Liberal Values - Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2837#comment-176739</guid>
		<description>[...] All true, plus Obama has made the right decisions on Iraq, on cluster bombs, on needle exchange programs. on health care, on the economy, and on limiting presidential power. Obama has more experience than Clinton, and even if he didn’t I’d rather have the candidate who has been right rather than the candidate whose experience means having made more mistakes.  Written by Ron ChusidLast 5 posts by Ron ChusidOne Woman Gives Seven Reasons To Support Her Candidate - February 11th, 2008Obama Beats Clinton Again--This Time For Grammy - February 10th, 2008Another Landslide For Obama - February 10th, 2008WGA Negotiating Committee Unanimously Accepts Contract Deal - February 10th, 2008Clinton Campaign Unable To Respond Effectively To Obama&#039;s Momentum - February 10th, 2008 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] All true, plus Obama has made the right decisions on Iraq, on cluster bombs, on needle exchange programs. on health care, on the economy, and on limiting presidential power. Obama has more experience than Clinton, and even if he didn’t I’d rather have the candidate who has been right rather than the candidate whose experience means having made more mistakes.  Written by Ron ChusidLast 5 posts by Ron ChusidOne Woman Gives Seven Reasons To Support Her Candidate &#8211; February 11th, 2008Obama Beats Clinton Again&#8211;This Time For Grammy &#8211; February 10th, 2008Another Landslide For Obama &#8211; February 10th, 2008WGA Negotiating Committee Unanimously Accepts Contract Deal &#8211; February 10th, 2008Clinton Campaign Unable To Respond Effectively To Obama&#8217;s Momentum &#8211; February 10th, 2008 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Two More Disagree with Clinton and Krugman on Mandates - Liberal Values - Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2008/02/04/clinton-obama-krugman-and-free-choice/comment-page-1/#comment-174139</link>
		<dc:creator>Two More Disagree with Clinton and Krugman on Mandates - Liberal Values - Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 05:41:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2837#comment-174139</guid>
		<description>[...] Clinton, Obama, Krugman, and Free Choice [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Clinton, Obama, Krugman, and Free Choice [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ToniC</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2008/02/04/clinton-obama-krugman-and-free-choice/comment-page-1/#comment-174022</link>
		<dc:creator>ToniC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:12:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2837#comment-174022</guid>
		<description>I agree that the issue of liberty is being ceded.  Perhaps I’d describe the method of mandating as anti-Libertarian more than anti-liberal though.  For the record I support Obama and think the issue is being overblown because of the few real policy differences.

Suppose home owners insurance was so expensive that many could not afford coverage.  Thus many would adopt to take only fire damage and take their chances on flood for tornado for example.  If everyone got coverage for flood/fire/wind/property premiums would go down.  Would mandating that all homeowners get total insurance be a good idea so that everyone could get lower premiums?

What happens when there is some sort of catastrophic event and the government comes in to help those that had insurance?  Should they not help those that didn’t?  

For Mr. Obama.  Life insurance is a choice.  But the state may have to care for the children if there is none. So should we mandate life insurance for parents?  We can’t function with this sort of mentality in a liberty based nation. 

While these examples strain the analogy they are appropriate in some ways.  People don’t have to have health insurance anymore than they have to have life insurance.  But they want it more.  I certainly had health insurance when I was 20 to 25 but I never once went to a doctor or ER until about 30.  The reason you wanted me “in the pool” is so that overall premiums go down.  

I would have been perfectly fine to have to pay my medical IF I then needed it.  And invest the money because it was unlikely I would need the coverage.  That would be my choice.  And in fact I would have opted for catastrophic only coverage if it was available.  (i.e. nothing other than life saving treatment is covered.)  I’ll pay for my own broken leg, arm, flu shot, or whatever.

The problem I have with taking away the liberty of one who would choose this approach is real.  It’s also a reason that it becomes easy to “Harry and Louise” the issue.  There is no universal coverage as there is no universal enforceable mandate unless it becomes a healthcare police state.  

Let’s take it a step further.  Instead of a ticket for seat belt violation have hefty fines that supports health care.  People that don’t wear seatbelts raise health care costs.  Same for smokers.  Same for skateboarders.  Same for motorcyclists. On and On.  Why should those that don’t smoke, sky dive or skateboard be paying so much?   The progressive would say because they have that liberty to take risk… :But I don’t?

The same liberty that allows the sky diver to take a risk allows an individual to risk nothing more than catastrophic coverage.  If mandates were limited to that, I might be for it.  If not, it’s just seeking to add those to the pool that liberty would say should not have to be if they choose not to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the issue of liberty is being ceded.  Perhaps I’d describe the method of mandating as anti-Libertarian more than anti-liberal though.  For the record I support Obama and think the issue is being overblown because of the few real policy differences.</p>
<p>Suppose home owners insurance was so expensive that many could not afford coverage.  Thus many would adopt to take only fire damage and take their chances on flood for tornado for example.  If everyone got coverage for flood/fire/wind/property premiums would go down.  Would mandating that all homeowners get total insurance be a good idea so that everyone could get lower premiums?</p>
<p>What happens when there is some sort of catastrophic event and the government comes in to help those that had insurance?  Should they not help those that didn’t?  </p>
<p>For Mr. Obama.  Life insurance is a choice.  But the state may have to care for the children if there is none. So should we mandate life insurance for parents?  We can’t function with this sort of mentality in a liberty based nation. </p>
<p>While these examples strain the analogy they are appropriate in some ways.  People don’t have to have health insurance anymore than they have to have life insurance.  But they want it more.  I certainly had health insurance when I was 20 to 25 but I never once went to a doctor or ER until about 30.  The reason you wanted me “in the pool” is so that overall premiums go down.  </p>
<p>I would have been perfectly fine to have to pay my medical IF I then needed it.  And invest the money because it was unlikely I would need the coverage.  That would be my choice.  And in fact I would have opted for catastrophic only coverage if it was available.  (i.e. nothing other than life saving treatment is covered.)  I’ll pay for my own broken leg, arm, flu shot, or whatever.</p>
<p>The problem I have with taking away the liberty of one who would choose this approach is real.  It’s also a reason that it becomes easy to “Harry and Louise” the issue.  There is no universal coverage as there is no universal enforceable mandate unless it becomes a healthcare police state.  </p>
<p>Let’s take it a step further.  Instead of a ticket for seat belt violation have hefty fines that supports health care.  People that don’t wear seatbelts raise health care costs.  Same for smokers.  Same for skateboarders.  Same for motorcyclists. On and On.  Why should those that don’t smoke, sky dive or skateboard be paying so much?   The progressive would say because they have that liberty to take risk… :But I don’t?</p>
<p>The same liberty that allows the sky diver to take a risk allows an individual to risk nothing more than catastrophic coverage.  If mandates were limited to that, I might be for it.  If not, it’s just seeking to add those to the pool that liberty would say should not have to be if they choose not to be.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2008/02/04/clinton-obama-krugman-and-free-choice/comment-page-1/#comment-173990</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 22:17:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2837#comment-173990</guid>
		<description>1 - I am not comparing abortion to a government program, I am making an analogy. I am not deamining or insulting anyone, I am just attempting to point out that if the government has nothing to do with the choices a woman makes with regard to pregnancy, why should the government have anything do to with deciding that somemone MUST purchase health insurance?
2 - Comparing a miscarriage by a woman who has been trying for several years to give birth to a medical procedure is an insult to women with fertility problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1 &#8211; I am not comparing abortion to a government program, I am making an analogy. I am not deamining or insulting anyone, I am just attempting to point out that if the government has nothing to do with the choices a woman makes with regard to pregnancy, why should the government have anything do to with deciding that somemone MUST purchase health insurance?<br />
2 &#8211; Comparing a miscarriage by a woman who has been trying for several years to give birth to a medical procedure is an insult to women with fertility problems.</p>
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		<title>By: capt</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2008/02/04/clinton-obama-krugman-and-free-choice/comment-page-1/#comment-173978</link>
		<dc:creator>capt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 21:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2837#comment-173978</guid>
		<description>Abortion is gender specific and from the names posting I doubt anybody here can say what it means to even consider the choices when we missed our period. 

Abortion has been around as long as having babies. In humans and in all of the animal world. A miscarriage is called a “spontaneous abortion” and can be caused by the actions of the pregnant woman. In simple terms the government has nothing to do with any of the “choices” a woman makes with regard to taking a pregnancy to term. 

We know the government could outlaw abortion but no law has ever stopped a person from breaking the law. 

Comparing abortion to “FICA” or  social security is absurd and trying to compare it to any tax, program or payroll deduction so demeans the gravity and all of the emotions a woman has to work through anytime her period is late that it is an insult to women and mothers. 

Shame on you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Abortion is gender specific and from the names posting I doubt anybody here can say what it means to even consider the choices when we missed our period. </p>
<p>Abortion has been around as long as having babies. In humans and in all of the animal world. A miscarriage is called a “spontaneous abortion” and can be caused by the actions of the pregnant woman. In simple terms the government has nothing to do with any of the “choices” a woman makes with regard to taking a pregnancy to term. </p>
<p>We know the government could outlaw abortion but no law has ever stopped a person from breaking the law. </p>
<p>Comparing abortion to “FICA” or  social security is absurd and trying to compare it to any tax, program or payroll deduction so demeans the gravity and all of the emotions a woman has to work through anytime her period is late that it is an insult to women and mothers. </p>
<p>Shame on you.</p>
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		<title>By: capt</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2008/02/04/clinton-obama-krugman-and-free-choice/comment-page-1/#comment-173974</link>
		<dc:creator>capt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 21:09:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2837#comment-173974</guid>
		<description>Reductio ad absurdum</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reductio ad absurdum</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2008/02/04/clinton-obama-krugman-and-free-choice/comment-page-1/#comment-173971</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 20:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2837#comment-173971</guid>
		<description>Oops clarification, 
the above should have read &quot;its their body, why are they being told how to spend their money on it?&quot;  When I reworked the start of the last sentence, I forgot to rework the end of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops clarification,<br />
the above should have read &#8220;its their body, why are they being told how to spend their money on it?&#8221;  When I reworked the start of the last sentence, I forgot to rework the end of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2008/02/04/clinton-obama-krugman-and-free-choice/comment-page-1/#comment-173969</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 20:45:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2837#comment-173969</guid>
		<description>Capt,
More like a woman has the choice of carrying a pregnacy to term or not, but an 23 year old grad student in good health doesn&#039;t have the choice of paying for Health Insurance or not.  It&#039;s their body, why are they being told how they have to spend it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Capt,<br />
More like a woman has the choice of carrying a pregnacy to term or not, but an 23 year old grad student in good health doesn&#8217;t have the choice of paying for Health Insurance or not.  It&#8217;s their body, why are they being told how they have to spend it?</p>
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