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	<title>Comments on: Remembering the Fifth of November as a Victory for Ron Paul, But Not Necessarily Pro-Freedom Beliefs</title>
	<atom:link href="http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2007/11/06/remembering-the-fifth-of-november-as-a-victory-for-ron-paul-but-not-necessarily-pro-freedom-beliefs/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2007/11/06/remembering-the-fifth-of-november-as-a-victory-for-ron-paul-but-not-necessarily-pro-freedom-beliefs/</link>
	<description>Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</description>
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		<title>By: Paul Supporters Receiving Increasingly Negative Press - Liberal Values - Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2007/11/06/remembering-the-fifth-of-november-as-a-victory-for-ron-paul-but-not-necessarily-pro-freedom-beliefs/comment-page-1/#comment-140153</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Supporters Receiving Increasingly Negative Press - Liberal Values - Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:21:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2355#comment-140153</guid>
		<description>[...] The lack of control is only partially true. In 2003-4 there was similar, and probably more widespread, use of the internet by supporters of Howard Dean. Their actions varied from constructive actions (which is also seen by some Paul supporters, such as in fund raising) as well as spamming comparable to that seen by the Paul supporters. Joe Trippi and some Dean supporters realized the harm that the latter were causing and did make an effort to convince them to cease their activities. Naturally they were not 100% effective but their efforts did help reduce the harm to the campaign. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The lack of control is only partially true. In 2003-4 there was similar, and probably more widespread, use of the internet by supporters of Howard Dean. Their actions varied from constructive actions (which is also seen by some Paul supporters, such as in fund raising) as well as spamming comparable to that seen by the Paul supporters. Joe Trippi and some Dean supporters realized the harm that the latter were causing and did make an effort to convince them to cease their activities. Naturally they were not 100% effective but their efforts did help reduce the harm to the campaign. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Where Ron Paul Stands, In Texas and Nationally - Liberal Values - Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2007/11/06/remembering-the-fifth-of-november-as-a-victory-for-ron-paul-but-not-necessarily-pro-freedom-beliefs/comment-page-1/#comment-138654</link>
		<dc:creator>Where Ron Paul Stands, In Texas and Nationally - Liberal Values - Defending Liberty and Enlightened Thought</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 05:47:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2355#comment-138654</guid>
		<description>[...] If Paul could receive 8% of the vote it would be about eight times greater than what the Libertarian Party could normally achieve. There is also the question as to whether there is much room for movement. While it is possible Paul might improve on this, my suspicion is that his support would drop as the race goes on. His upside potential would come from greater exposure now that he has more money to work with. I suspect that those who might vote for Paul are people who pay close attention to politics and already are aware of him.Paul’s problem is that many of the Democratic voters who now consider voting for him due to his position on Iraq are likely to change their minds when they consider his other positions and record. Democrats and many independents who oppose the war are not likely to vote for a candidate who opposes abortion rights and does not believe in separation of church and state. While Paul will receive more attention than he has in the past, this is likely to include more coverage of his views and his affiliation with far right extremist groups leading to an erosion of his support. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] If Paul could receive 8% of the vote it would be about eight times greater than what the Libertarian Party could normally achieve. There is also the question as to whether there is much room for movement. While it is possible Paul might improve on this, my suspicion is that his support would drop as the race goes on. His upside potential would come from greater exposure now that he has more money to work with. I suspect that those who might vote for Paul are people who pay close attention to politics and already are aware of him.Paul’s problem is that many of the Democratic voters who now consider voting for him due to his position on Iraq are likely to change their minds when they consider his other positions and record. Democrats and many independents who oppose the war are not likely to vote for a candidate who opposes abortion rights and does not believe in separation of church and state. While Paul will receive more attention than he has in the past, this is likely to include more coverage of his views and his affiliation with far right extremist groups leading to an erosion of his support. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Chusid</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2007/11/06/remembering-the-fifth-of-november-as-a-victory-for-ron-paul-but-not-necessarily-pro-freedom-beliefs/comment-page-1/#comment-136153</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Chusid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 17:52:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2355#comment-136153</guid>
		<description>Naughten got this right in one way. &quot;This Ron Paul constitutional rebellion is an escallation and re-orientation of the American Cultural War.&quot;

Unfortunately Paul is on the wrong side of the cultural war. He is also not on the Constitutional side as he basic principles including separation of church and state and the later application of Constitutional liberties to the states. 

Paul is on the wrong side of the culture wars, as well ignoring Constitutional rights regarding freedom of religion and privacy when he supports a woman&#039;s right to control her own body and when he supports school prayer.

As I&#039;ve said many  times before, and as Naughten demonstrates, the Paul campaign is a far right wing social conservative movement, not a libertarian movement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Naughten got this right in one way. &#8220;This Ron Paul constitutional rebellion is an escallation and re-orientation of the American Cultural War.&#8221;</p>
<p>Unfortunately Paul is on the wrong side of the cultural war. He is also not on the Constitutional side as he basic principles including separation of church and state and the later application of Constitutional liberties to the states. </p>
<p>Paul is on the wrong side of the culture wars, as well ignoring Constitutional rights regarding freedom of religion and privacy when he supports a woman&#8217;s right to control her own body and when he supports school prayer.</p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve said many  times before, and as Naughten demonstrates, the Paul campaign is a far right wing social conservative movement, not a libertarian movement.</p>
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		<title>By: Naughten</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2007/11/06/remembering-the-fifth-of-november-as-a-victory-for-ron-paul-but-not-necessarily-pro-freedom-beliefs/comment-page-1/#comment-136146</link>
		<dc:creator>Naughten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 16:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2355#comment-136146</guid>
		<description>DAWN OF THE AMERICAN REFORMATION, AND END OF THE ERA OF THE UGLY AMERICAN 

This Ron Paul constitutional rebellion is an escallation and re-orientation of the American Cultural War, by the American People, against the rising governmental tyranny by Neoconservative Republicans and Leftist Democrats. It is sweeping across America like a wildfire - ignited by the illegal and unnecessary invasion of Iraq. 

It raises many crucial questions; such as, where does the American Constitution give my government the right to sacrifice precious American wealth and blood, in interests of domestic and foreign lobbies? 

And, where does the American Constitution give my government the right to allow my nation to be invaded and permanently by illegal aliens? 

And, where does the American Constitution give my government the right to support the sacrificial killing of children, by their own mothers?

And, where does the American Constitution give my government the right to discriminate against traditional religious practices in public schools, universities, marriage institutions, armed forces, and governmental offices?

This creeping governmental tyranny, driven by perverse special interests, has now been going on for so many decades, like the illegal invasion, that the impending American Reformation is regarded with fear and loathing, by those who are to lose their illicit gains. 

Like Gandhi, Ron Paul is drawing his intrepid volunteers from the full spectrum of humanity; and World is cheering him on to victory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DAWN OF THE AMERICAN REFORMATION, AND END OF THE ERA OF THE UGLY AMERICAN </p>
<p>This Ron Paul constitutional rebellion is an escallation and re-orientation of the American Cultural War, by the American People, against the rising governmental tyranny by Neoconservative Republicans and Leftist Democrats. It is sweeping across America like a wildfire &#8211; ignited by the illegal and unnecessary invasion of Iraq. </p>
<p>It raises many crucial questions; such as, where does the American Constitution give my government the right to sacrifice precious American wealth and blood, in interests of domestic and foreign lobbies? </p>
<p>And, where does the American Constitution give my government the right to allow my nation to be invaded and permanently by illegal aliens? </p>
<p>And, where does the American Constitution give my government the right to support the sacrificial killing of children, by their own mothers?</p>
<p>And, where does the American Constitution give my government the right to discriminate against traditional religious practices in public schools, universities, marriage institutions, armed forces, and governmental offices?</p>
<p>This creeping governmental tyranny, driven by perverse special interests, has now been going on for so many decades, like the illegal invasion, that the impending American Reformation is regarded with fear and loathing, by those who are to lose their illicit gains. </p>
<p>Like Gandhi, Ron Paul is drawing his intrepid volunteers from the full spectrum of humanity; and World is cheering him on to victory.</p>
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		<title>By: bill</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2007/11/06/remembering-the-fifth-of-november-as-a-victory-for-ron-paul-but-not-necessarily-pro-freedom-beliefs/comment-page-1/#comment-135447</link>
		<dc:creator>bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 16:38:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2355#comment-135447</guid>
		<description>I understand where you are coming from on many of your points,  abortion is probably my largest disagreement with paul

however there is no one who comes even close to his integrity running for pres, let alone in washington.  so dispite his shortcomings a vote for paul is not a vote for the lesser of two evils or against someone who is crappy.  it is a vote for someone who is actually pretty good.

I am not saying that we should not talk about what we disagree with him on but that it makes sense to show support even when we do to help show people the direction to liberty even if paul is not the final stop</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand where you are coming from on many of your points,  abortion is probably my largest disagreement with paul</p>
<p>however there is no one who comes even close to his integrity running for pres, let alone in washington.  so dispite his shortcomings a vote for paul is not a vote for the lesser of two evils or against someone who is crappy.  it is a vote for someone who is actually pretty good.</p>
<p>I am not saying that we should not talk about what we disagree with him on but that it makes sense to show support even when we do to help show people the direction to liberty even if paul is not the final stop</p>
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		<title>By: Al Richardson</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2007/11/06/remembering-the-fifth-of-november-as-a-victory-for-ron-paul-but-not-necessarily-pro-freedom-beliefs/comment-page-1/#comment-135260</link>
		<dc:creator>Al Richardson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 01:15:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2355#comment-135260</guid>
		<description>As a physician and strong supporter of Dr. Paul (simply leveraging this accidental visit) recommend you all to leave yourself in the capable hands of Dr. Paul for healing and understanding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a physician and strong supporter of Dr. Paul (simply leveraging this accidental visit) recommend you all to leave yourself in the capable hands of Dr. Paul for healing and understanding.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Chusid</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2007/11/06/remembering-the-fifth-of-november-as-a-victory-for-ron-paul-but-not-necessarily-pro-freedom-beliefs/comment-page-1/#comment-135246</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Chusid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:09:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2355#comment-135246</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t buy the argument that the money will be spent regardless. While it might be a political fact of life and impossible to stop, if Congressmen would not put in earmarks we would have less spending. I also don&#039;t think he is off the hook money gets spent that he introduced, regardless of how he votes in the end. Regardless this isn&#039;t a particularly important issue as at worst it shows that Paul isn&#039;t perfect and does what everyone else does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t buy the argument that the money will be spent regardless. While it might be a political fact of life and impossible to stop, if Congressmen would not put in earmarks we would have less spending. I also don&#8217;t think he is off the hook money gets spent that he introduced, regardless of how he votes in the end. Regardless this isn&#8217;t a particularly important issue as at worst it shows that Paul isn&#8217;t perfect and does what everyone else does.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin O.</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2007/11/06/remembering-the-fifth-of-november-as-a-victory-for-ron-paul-but-not-necessarily-pro-freedom-beliefs/comment-page-1/#comment-135244</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin O.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2355#comment-135244</guid>
		<description>One important thing to remember is that Paul isn&#039;t voting to spend more money, but rather putting in requests as to how that money is spent (earmarks). The money will be spent regardless, and since his constituents do pay federal taxes, they deserve to get money back just like everyone else.
   Some argue this is hypocritical, others say it&#039;s a political necessity, still others think that as long as he votes against the spending bill in the end, it&#039;s fine. In all honesty, I can see the points on each side but I tend to land in the third camp.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One important thing to remember is that Paul isn&#8217;t voting to spend more money, but rather putting in requests as to how that money is spent (earmarks). The money will be spent regardless, and since his constituents do pay federal taxes, they deserve to get money back just like everyone else.<br />
   Some argue this is hypocritical, others say it&#8217;s a political necessity, still others think that as long as he votes against the spending bill in the end, it&#8217;s fine. In all honesty, I can see the points on each side but I tend to land in the third camp.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Chusid</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2007/11/06/remembering-the-fifth-of-november-as-a-victory-for-ron-paul-but-not-necessarily-pro-freedom-beliefs/comment-page-1/#comment-135225</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Chusid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 23:14:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2355#comment-135225</guid>
		<description>Interesting about the pork. I had read a report recently on pork which Paul has supported which listed a number of examples. I attributed this to a need to play the game to get reelected. It would be interesting to check the final votes on the items listed (if I can still find the article) to see if they are cases where Paul introduced them and then voted against them. 

There&#039;s still the question of the final outcome with the pork. If he introduced the pork measures and then they died it might be argued that he deceived his constituents but no harm was done financially. On the other hand, if the measures he introduced passed, even without his vote, it could still be said he is responsible for adding unnecessary spending to the budget. 

If he routinely introduced pork to get support in his district and then voted against it, I would think that sooner or later someone would catch on and this would be used against him in a campaign.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting about the pork. I had read a report recently on pork which Paul has supported which listed a number of examples. I attributed this to a need to play the game to get reelected. It would be interesting to check the final votes on the items listed (if I can still find the article) to see if they are cases where Paul introduced them and then voted against them. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s still the question of the final outcome with the pork. If he introduced the pork measures and then they died it might be argued that he deceived his constituents but no harm was done financially. On the other hand, if the measures he introduced passed, even without his vote, it could still be said he is responsible for adding unnecessary spending to the budget. </p>
<p>If he routinely introduced pork to get support in his district and then voted against it, I would think that sooner or later someone would catch on and this would be used against him in a campaign.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2007/11/06/remembering-the-fifth-of-november-as-a-victory-for-ron-paul-but-not-necessarily-pro-freedom-beliefs/comment-page-1/#comment-135217</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2355#comment-135217</guid>
		<description>which explains why he would cosponsor an amendment on school prayer and vote against it, the people he represent are probably heavily for it, but on principle, he knows that&#039;s not the federal governments pervue, so voted against it. It may seem illogical to some, but it strikes me as very consistent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>which explains why he would cosponsor an amendment on school prayer and vote against it, the people he represent are probably heavily for it, but on principle, he knows that&#8217;s not the federal governments pervue, so voted against it. It may seem illogical to some, but it strikes me as very consistent.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2007/11/06/remembering-the-fifth-of-november-as-a-victory-for-ron-paul-but-not-necessarily-pro-freedom-beliefs/comment-page-1/#comment-135214</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2355#comment-135214</guid>
		<description>I have looked into his Votes against bills he sponsors and earmarks and have come to the theory that he does it to represent his constituency, then represent his ideology.

He puts requests in for Pork like every other congressman, and other things to serve the people of his district, then votes against them as it is counter to his ideology.

This means that he can serve his district, while not betraying his beliefs.

This thoery is just my take on it, so if anyone else knows better please correct me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have looked into his Votes against bills he sponsors and earmarks and have come to the theory that he does it to represent his constituency, then represent his ideology.</p>
<p>He puts requests in for Pork like every other congressman, and other things to serve the people of his district, then votes against them as it is counter to his ideology.</p>
<p>This means that he can serve his district, while not betraying his beliefs.</p>
<p>This thoery is just my take on it, so if anyone else knows better please correct me.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Chusid</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2007/11/06/remembering-the-fifth-of-november-as-a-victory-for-ron-paul-but-not-necessarily-pro-freedom-beliefs/comment-page-1/#comment-135198</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Chusid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 21:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2355#comment-135198</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s curious. I wasn&#039;t aware that he voted against it after cosponsoring it. I would think that he would have made some type of statement at the time of his vote. Maybe one of his supporters is a aware of the specifics and can provide a link. Hopefully he changed his views at some point on the issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s curious. I wasn&#8217;t aware that he voted against it after cosponsoring it. I would think that he would have made some type of statement at the time of his vote. Maybe one of his supporters is a aware of the specifics and can provide a link. Hopefully he changed his views at some point on the issue.</p>
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		<title>By: FreedomDemocrat</title>
		<link>http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2007/11/06/remembering-the-fifth-of-november-as-a-victory-for-ron-paul-but-not-necessarily-pro-freedom-beliefs/comment-page-1/#comment-135197</link>
		<dc:creator>FreedomDemocrat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 21:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2355#comment-135197</guid>
		<description>Ron, I was looking into the school prayer amendment, I see that he co-sponsored and then voted against it.  

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1998/roll201.xml

What&#039;s that mean?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron, I was looking into the school prayer amendment, I see that he co-sponsored and then voted against it.  </p>
<p><a href="http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1998/roll201.xml" rel="nofollow">http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1998/roll201.xml</a></p>
<p>What&#8217;s that mean?</p>
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