Sun-Sentinel Stands Up For Kerry

I’ve seen far too many post-election commentaries believing that Kerry’s chances for 2008 are finished following the manner in which the right wingers twisted his comment on George Bush getting us stuck in Iraq. The South Florida Sun-Sentinel has published this defense of John Kerry:

It has become very tiring, reading the letters of people who believe John Kerry was disparaging our troops. If those angry writers had listened to the comments he made before his so-called gaffe, they would have realized Kerry was trying to make fun of President Bush, not our armed forces.

To me, this uproar is just another example of the continuing dumbing-down of America. Many of us just don’t get it. Are we so ill-informed that we can’t tell when a bad joke is uttered? Kerry was attacking President Bush’s lack of intelligence and warning the students how stupidity could lead to bad decisions. If you don’t do your reading or study history, you might wind up in Iraq.

Maybe a bad joke. Perhaps he should have said, “You might wind up leading the country into an unnecessary war, like Iraq.” Maybe not too funny, but this was really the point of the comments.

I’m sure Kerry didn’t apologize immediately because he couldn’t believe that his joke could be so misconstrued. All the political broadcasting pundits knew where Kerry was going with his remarks. President Bush and his cohorts, with no hope of saving their incompetent, corrupt administration, jumped at a last chance to denigrate Kerry and make it appear that Democrats don’t care about our troops. What a sad attempt!

It’s time to end the discussion about Kerry and what he meant to imply. It’s sad that many of us don’t know the difference between slander and joking. Let’s all get serious and work to end the mess in Iraq and bring our troops home.

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30 Comments

  1. 1
    mbk says:

    Thanks for posting this, Ron. I too hope that this is a sign of more adult analyses to come.
    One of John Kerry’s recent statements ended, “Let’s get serious.” Oh, yes. Let’s get serious. That’s my dream, too.

  2. 2
    battlebob says:

    I know a lot of folks in Illinois who are using the joke as an excuse to push for Obama.

  3. 3
    michael says:

    Pleeeezzzz! Kerry, like most democrats, have nothing but contempt for our troops. He proved that in 1971 and he proved it with the Iraqi war funding. I’m tired of hearing democrats say they support our troops but not the war. You can’t have it both ways. Our troops were trained to KILL! That’s what they do. That’s what happens in war! So admit it. You despise the military. You broadcast sensitive information that can harm them. They see it. You accuse them of torturing. You accuse them of murder. You accuse them of terrorizing women and children. Do you really think they believe you when you say you support them?

  4. 4
    Ron Chusid says:

    This shows an interesting separation from reality among conservatives–which likely contributed from them being thrown out of power.

    You are getting pretty pathetic when you have to resort to fabricating claims about what the opponent says, or even believes. It just shows you have no actual argument against the opponent’s actual beliefs.

    The only thing proved by Kerry’s testimony in 1971 is how dishonest the right wing is. Kerry spoke out to support the troops, such as pushing for improvements in medical care, and taking them out of the position of receiving orders which have been confirmed as illegal under international law (such as the free fire zones). The right wingers responded by distorting his testimony, even resorting to editing clips to give a false impression of what he said.

    Similarly Kerry was saying absolutely nothing negative about the troops, but the right wingers twisted what he said. The prepared text verified this, and even honest conservatives have conceded that Kerry was talking about Bush getting us stuck in Iraq. Similarly right wingers twisted earlier statements about terrorizing children.

    As for war funding, it has been Kerry who has repeatedly pushed for greater support and funding, often over Republican objection. It’s Republicans who sent them off to war without adequate supplies such as body armor. More seriously, it was Republicans who sent them into a no-win situation.

    “Our troops were trained to KILL! That’s what they do. That’s what happens in war!” What an absurd argument. Nobody is criticizing the troops for who they kill in battle. The criticism is directed towards those who sent them into a war in a manner which has harmed our national security.

    Broadcast sensitive information–you mean like the NSA warrantless wiretapping? More evidence of dishonesty among the right wingers. A few papers, including the liberal New York Times and the conservative Wall Street Journal simultaneously broke the same story. Conservatives attacked the New York Times and ignored the fact that the Wall Street Journal reported the same. Then there’s the fact that what you call sensitive information is information most likely known to the other side. The secrets being revealed are secrets being kept from the American people, not the other side.

    If you have objections to the beliefs of John Kerry or anyone else, at least show the honesty and guts to criticize them for their actual beliefs. To attack them over alleged beliefs which you have made up and falsely attributed to them is just pathetic.

  5. 5
    kj says:

    Wasn’t it Ace Fox Reporter Geroldo that “broadcast sensitive information” by drawing our troops movements in the sand… and then making sure they were televised?

    Hmmm, and that chaplain I interviewed who volunteered to go to Iraq, was he trained to kill? I guess so. Just as supporting his decision and supporting the family readiness group his wife belong to was showed contempt for the troops as well.

  6. 6
    kj says:

    Grammer. Please excuse. Am all over the map today. =:-)

  7. 7
    michael says:

    “This shows an interesting separation from reality among conservatives–which likely contributed from them being thrown out of power”

    The last time I looked W was still sitting in the Oval Office with his veto pen in hand waiting for you liberals to send stupid legislation such as minimum wage to him. I wouldn’t feel too comfortable with your new found power.

    “fabricating claims about what the opponent says”

    Care to give us an example?

    “The only thing proved by Kerry’s testimony in 1971 is how dishonest the right wing is”

    Sure, sure, blame the right wing for kerry’s lies. Blame the right wing about kerry’s conspiring with the enemies in Paris. Like a true liberal blame the right wing for dumb actions by your comrads.

    “Kerry spoke out to support the troops”

    Oh please! Accussing his fellow servicemen of cutting off ears, limbs, burning down huts, raising villages. Strange way of supporting the troops but then again, hey your a democrat!

    “Similarly Kerry was saying absolutely nothing negative about the troops”

    He said what he said no matter how you try to explain it away.

    “The criticism is directed towards those who sent them into a war in a manner which has harmed our national security”

    Harmed our national security? How? Our national security has been harmed by you liberals who expose our intelligence methods, reveal our secret prisons, printing dumb pictures from Abu Grhaib that give comfort to our enemies and rally them to kill more Americans!

    “If you have objections to the beliefs of John Kerry or anyone else, at least show the honesty and guts to criticize them for their actual beliefs.”

    kerry has put on display for all to see what his beliefs are, I don’t need to make anything up. Of course it takes a pair of eyes, ears, and a brain to see them!

  8. 8
    Ron Chusid says:

    Re fabricating claims about what Kerry said: Two examples have already been noted. The twisting of Kerry’s testimony on Vietnam to claim it was at attack on the troops, and twisting Kerry’s comments on Bush getting us stuck in Iraq as an attack on the troops.

    Nobody’s blaming the right wing for “Kerry’s lies.” Kerry told no lies. Everything he said has been verified. The lies are those from the right wing which distort what he says. They’ve even resorted to editing tapes to give a false impression of what Kerry said. Your account of what Kerry said is incorrect. That’s a twisting of an answer he gave when asked a question as to what came up at the Wintersoldier Hearings. These were not Kerry’s accusations. Kerry’s testimony was in support of the troops, but right wingers distort that fact for political reasons.

    Iraq has harmed our national security in many ways. The war has strengthened al Qaeda and Iran while tying down US forces unnecessarily. It acted to radicalized moderates in the Middle East against the US. Devoting the attention to Iraq caused Bush to fail in other areas, such as allowing bin Laden to escape at Tora Bora, allowing the Taliban to make a come back in Afghanistan, and allowing North Korea to develop the bomb.

    A free press is part of living in a free country. Following the rule of law is part of living in a free country. When people violate the rule of law, such as at Abu Grhaib, it is the responsibility of the press to report this. If we give up a free press and give up the rule of law, we’ve already lost.

    Kerry has a long history of strong support for the troops, often over the objections of Republicans who are willing to send them as cannon fodder but are unwilling to provide body armor, adequate health care, etc. Republicans try to cover up their shoddy treatment of the troops by inventing the type of lies you are spreading about Kerry.

  9. 9
    michael says:

    “twisting Kerry’s comments on Bush getting us stuck in Iraq as an attack on the troops.”

    Nowhere did kerry say this. If you have documented proof that no one else in the world has, please share it with us? Kerry said what he said. If you want to twist it to support that fraud, well it doesn’t say much for you.

    “Kerry told no lies”

    He lied when he claimed the Swifties lied! I hope you open up that can of worms?

    “The war has strengthened al Qaeda”

    al Qaeda has been decimated.

    “It acted to radicalized moderates in the Middle East against the US”

    Don’t you liberals ever get tired of blaming us for the actions of others? The poverty in these countries caused by their own leaders generates this radicalism.

    “allowing bin Laden to escape at Tora Bora”

    bin Laden will be caught. Our troops are not trained to hunt down one man, they are trained to fight a war. True to liberal form you give very little credit to the troops who are still in Afghanistan looking for this animal.

    “allowing North Korea to develop the bomb”

    Oh that’s right, you want us to negotiate with them. Do you remember when Clinton did and failed? Bush has been holding out for our 6 other partners and rightfully so. If then it fails, they won’t be able to blame just the U.S.!

    “When people violate the rule of law, such as at Abu Grhaib, it is the responsibility of the press to report this”

    And are you ready to accept the consequences? No, of course not.

    “If we give up a free press and give up the rule of law, we’ve already lost”

    If we give up our military secrets, our intelligence secrets, and continue to criticizing our troops we won’t need a free press!

    “Republicans try to cover up their shoddy treatment of the troops by inventing the type of lies you are spreading about Kerry”

    If Republicans are guilty of shoddy treatment of the troops then why do they overwhelmingly vote Republican? Maybe because your statement is a bunch of nonsense?

  10. 10
    kj says:

    “Blame the right wing about kerry’s conspiring with the enemies in Paris.”
    ~~Source for this?

    “Accussing his fellow servicemen of cutting off ears, limbs, burning down huts, raising villages.”
    ~~Accuse? Hardly. John Kerry said: “..I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000 which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony….”
    and:
    “I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command….”.
    ~~That’s isn’t “accusing” Michael. Read the words. Understand the context. Don’t be a parrot.

    “Harmed our national security? How?”
    ~~Oh Michael. There isn’t enough time tonight to take that subject on, unless you are willing to really listen and think with your own mind. Which this statement of yours: “you liberals who expose our intelligence methods, reveal our secret prisons, printing dumb pictures from Abu Grhaib that give comfort to our enemies and rally them to kill more Americans!” (dumb pictures?) leads me to believe you might not be capable of doing.

    Bye, Michael.

  11. 11
    Ron Chusid says:

    It has been widely reported by the newsmedia that the prepared text was to say “you’ll get us stuck in Iraq. Just ask George Bush.” This came along with multiple jokes about Bush, and Kerry frequently speaks of George Bush getting stuck in Iraq. This is the only interpretation which makes sense when all the facts are reviewed. Everyone other than some far right partisans have given up this attack (and even a number of conservatives have agreed that Kerry was not talking about hte troops.

    The Swifties have been exposed as liars. Their claims contradicted the military record, the accounts of people actually there, and even their own accounts.

    You really need to study up on the middle east before making so many ignorant statements. Al Qaeda has not been decimated–it has grown thanks to how much the war increased their recruitment. It is just more decentralized now, but hardly decimated. The United States had the support of much of the world after 9/11, but it was the invasion of Iraq which destroyed that and radicalized so many. If you cared to pay attention to facts rather than right wing talking points, there have been several studies from several countries ranging from Israel to Saudi Arabia which has shown this.

    “True to liberal form you give very little credit to the troops who are still in Afghanistan looking for this animal.” Another example of how you are totally out of touch with the reality in imagining criticism of the troops. If anything, I was complimenting them, as Kerry did when he complained about Bush outsourcing the hunt for bin Laden. Bin Laden was surrounded at Tora Bora. Instead of sending in the highly qualified US troops, Bush pulled back and had the locals go in. Bin Laden paid them off and escaped. Similarly the fact that the Taliban is taking over in Afghanistan again is not the fault of the troops but of incompetent decisions by the Bush administration. Of course rather than facing reality you’d rather make up claims that the troops are being criticized.

    Clinton’s policies towards North Korea worked. Sure, North Korea cheated a bit, but the important thing is that we had monitoring in place and the North Koreans were prevented from playing with plutonium. Bush needed to strengthen and expand upon Clinton’s actions in North Korea, not abandon them as he did. By abandoning the framework Clinton set up, we no longer had monitoring and the North Koreans were able to start using plutonium.

    Nobody is giving up intelligence secrets that matter or help the enemy. They are revealing secrets kept from the American people, not things which are secret to the people over there. Revealing that illegal torture was being committed does not help the enemy win. However, if we give up our principles, we become no better than Saddam.

    The government spends fortunes on propaganda. The troops are exposed to a steady stream of Rush Limbaugh and similar right wingers and do not get the true story of how the Republicans are screwing them, and that it is people like Kerry who have been fighting to improve their conditions. Interesting that once they are back home there are far more veterans among Democrats than Republicans in office.

  12. 12
    battlebob says:

    Ron, KJ,
    Have fun with your new play toy.
    Try not to break it this time.

  13. 13
    michael says:

    I don’t have time to respond to both your posts in one sitting, so I’ll do a little at a time.

    ““Blame the right wing about kerry’s conspiring with the enemies in Paris.”
    ~~Source for this?”

    “Even before Jane Fonda went to Hanoi to meet with the enemy and mock America, John Kerry secretly met with enemy leaders in Paris. Though we were still at war and Americans were being held in North Vietnamese prison camps. Then, he returned and accused American troops of committing war crimes on a daily basis. Eventually Jane Fonda apologized for her activities, but John Kerry refuses to. In a time of war, can America trust a man who betrayed his country?”

    Any person who —
    (1) aids, or attempts to aid, the enemy with arms, ammunition, supplies, money, or other things; or
    (2) without proper authority, knowingly harbors or protects or gives intelligence to, or communicates or corresponds with or holds any intercourse with the enemy, either directly or indirectly;
    shall suffer death or such other punishment as a court-martial or military commission may direct.

    “~~Oh Michael. There isn’t enough time tonight to take that subject on, unless you are willing to really listen and think with your own mind.”

    Try me if you can?

    “(dumb pictures?) leads me to believe you might not be capable of doing.”

    Yes, dumb pictures! Exactly what do you see in those pictures? They were posed! There was no torture going on. Panties on heads? That’s torture? Point me to ONE picture that shows torture?

  14. 14
    michael says:

    “Have fun with your new play toy.”

    Not on your best day!

  15. 15
    michael says:

    “It has been widely reported by the newsmedia that the prepared text was to say “you’ll get us stuck in Iraq. Just ask George Bush.”

    Newsmedia? L.A. Times? S.F. Chronicle? Boston Globe? He said what he said and he will NEVER live it down. He doesn’t stand a chance in 2008!

    “Kerry frequently speaks of George Bush getting stuck in Iraq.”

    Maybe so, but this time he implied the troops stuck in Iraq are stupid!

    “The Swifties have been exposed as liars.”

    For example?

    “it has grown thanks to how much the war increased their recruitment.”

    Absurd! Did WWII increase the Nazi recruitment? If the war is increasing recruitment is that a reason to end it? I know you liberals don’t have the stomache for this engagement. God help us if you win in 2008!

    “The United States had the support of much of the world after 9/11”

    And when it came time to confront terror directly coward countries like France, Germany, and Russia wouldn’t join us because of their corrupt oil dealings with Iraq!

    “If anything, I was complimenting them”

    Nice try! You can’t suger coat your contempt for the troops. They’re not stupid. They see what you liberals are doing every day on Fox & CNN. How many stories did we have to read in the liberal press about Abu Grhaib? How many stories did we have to read in the liberal press about our soldiers flushing the Koran down toilets?

    More to come.

  16. 16
    Ron Chusid says:

    You really expect your twisted history of Kerry’s actions to be taken seriously? From your claims he would have been tried as a traitor. Of course he wasn’t as your charges are fabricated, just as your claims about what Kerry said,

    As has already been explained to you, Kerry never said anything about the troops being stupid. He was speaking about Bush. Lying about what Kerry said, either post Vietnam or now, does not make it so.

    Sad that you don’t see anything wrong with the pictures out of mistreatment of Iraqi”s. That’s why we are losing the war for hearts and minds, which is really what this is about. Your analogy to Nazi recruitment is also absurd. The goal here is not to go in and kill everyone in the Middle East like we killed Nazi soldiers. The goal is to set up a situation favorable to democracy and moderate governments. Our involvement in Iraq has increased support for al Qaeda and the extremists and undermined pro-Democracy groups.

    The Swift Boat lies have been widely disputed. They’ve been completely exposed as liars. For example, check out Factcheck.org for several examples. Here’s just a few which are easy to copy the links as these are together. There are also several more there from earlier dates:

    Update: Two New Witnesses Contradict Kerry’s Swift Boat Critics

    08.22.2004

    Update: Navy Records Contradict Kerry Accuser; Citation Says Accuser Also Was Under Enemy Fire

    08.19.2004

    Clarification: Kerry’s Silver Star citations

    08.14.2004

    Update: Man Kerry Rescued Calls Swift Boat Ad False: Gives Vivid Account of Rescue Under Enemy Fire

    There have been many more articles exposing the Swift Boat Liars. I posted many of them at The Democratic Daily blog earlier in the year. You might try going there and doing a search for Swift Boat in the search box.

    “Nice try! You can’t suger coat your contempt for the troops.”

    You really are messed up. First you repeat false claims about Kerry which have been thoroughly refuted as lies from political opponents. Now you claim I have contempt for the troops, despite the fact you know nothing about what I think and what I have written here has been supportive. As I said before, you are quite pathetic when your entire argument comes down to making up what other people have said and think

  17. 17
    battlebob says:

    Michael,
    Now that your junior high classes are done for the day, please tell us why you like Bush so much?

    So far, you have shown the logic of a 12 year old.
    Are you happy with the way Bush has used the troops?
    Arr you happy about the lack of body armor and vehicles with armor in them?

    How about the strategy of waging a war without any plan to win the peace?
    How about lieing to go to war?
    Do you really believe Iraq had WMD?
    Do you really believe Iraq had anything to do with 911?
    How do you feel about Bush letting bin Laden get away at Tora Bora?
    If you really love Vets like you say you do then you must not like Bush’s cutbacks in VA treatment for head wounds. Head wounds are prevalent in Iraq because of IEDs.

  18. 18
    Ron Chusid says:

    battlebob,

    Why do you hate the troops? You liberals hate America and are not willing to face the consequences of letting the terrorists win.

    (I’m just answerilng for Michael. How do you like my immitation? It dosen’t take any real thought to post like him, and you don’t have to worry about any of those pesky facts.)

  19. 19
    battlebob says:

    Gees Ron…you had me worried…I thought you might be serving kool-aid in your office.

    On a more serious note…your site keeps going down for me with a server-not-found error.
    Has happened twice today for about 20 min each.
    It may be when you create a new topic. One outage seems correspond with the Schembechler topic. Or it may be a coincidence.

  20. 20
    Ron Chusid says:

    There have been a number of such incidents recently. They moved the blog to a new server recently and I had hoped that this would solve the problems of it going down. Maybe they haven’t finished all the work. As they are doing major stuff I thought I should give it a little time before saying anything.

    It is probably a coincidence whether it happens when I post. One time earlier this week it happened just as I was posting something and the whole post was lost. Often I will save something before the final posting to prevent this, but this time I hadn’t saved a copy.

  21. 21
    michael says:

    “You really expect your twisted history of Kerry’s actions to be taken seriously?”

    Twisted history? Is my thinking twisted when I ask a question like how could anyone get 3 Purple Hearts without shedding a drop of blood and without spending 1 night in the hospital? Is my thinking twisted when I ask a question like what did kerry do to accumulated medals faster than Audey Murphy? Is my thinking twisted when I ask a question like why did it take kerry 5 years to be issued a Honorable Discharge?

    “From your claims he would have been tried as a traitor.”

    He should have been. He was still in the Navy Reserve when he met with the North Vietnamese deligation. He was however issued a less than honorable discharge.

    “Kerry never said anything about the troops being stupid.”

    He said if you don’t study and become smart you could end up stuck in Iraq. Nowhere in his statement did he mention Bush!

    “Lying about what Kerry said, either post Vietnam or now, does not make it so.”

    I’ve asked you to present to us kerry’s statement where he was referring to Bush without altering it. You haven’t!

    “Sad that you don’t see anything wrong with the pictures out of mistreatment of Iraqi’’s.”

    Well then maybe you can produce one for us which clearly displays torture?

    “That’s why we are losing the war for hearts and minds”

    Whose hearts and minds? French? German? Russian?

    “The goal here is not to go in and kill everyone in the Middle East”

    If they are terrorists, yes it is.

    “Update: Two New Witnesses Contradict Kerry’s Swift Boat Critics”

    How come when Swift Boat Vets speak you shut them up with,
    were you on Kerry’s boat? And then attack them.

    So have you attacked William B. Rood also because he was not on Kerry’s boat.

  22. 22
    Ron Chusid says:

    Read the actual accounts of Kerry’s medals. Each has been examined and verified as deserved. The claims of the Swifties have no more validity than absurd twist on Kerry’s post Vietnam activities. No disciplinary action was taken while he was in the reserve as your charges are nonsense.

    I’ve already told you what the prepared text of Kerry’s statement was. The more complete quote is:

    “I can’t overstress the importance of a great education. Do you know where you end up if you don’t study, if you aren’t’smart, if you’re intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq. Just ask President Bush.”

    This is about Bush, and came in the midst of similar comments about Bush. This has nothing to do with the troops, regardless of how you want to try to spin it.

    This is a battle for the hearts and minds of the people in the middle east, not the French, or Germans. The point is to prevent them from becoming terrorists, not to take action which radicalizes them and then have to go in to kill them. Al Qaeda and insurgent groups are growing from increased support from former moderates who were radicalized due to the war. Peope are becomming radicallized faster than we can kill them as a result of the war–hardly a sensible policy. All the war is doing is strengthening al Qaeda and Iran while weakening US support in the region.

    Evaluation of the evidence with regards to Kerry’s war record is not based solely on whether someone was on Kerry’s boat, although the fact that many of the people bringing charges against Kerry weren’t even around is one issue. Obviously the reports of those who were present carries more weight than those who were not there.

  23. 23
    michael says:

    “I can’t overstress the importance of a great education. Do you know where you end up if you don’t study, if you aren’t’smart, if you’re intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq. Just ask President Bush.”

    That is NOT what he said. He said the following:

    “You know, education — if you make the most of it — you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”

    “This has nothing to do with the troops, regardless of how you want to try to spin it.”

    Read the quote again. Where did he mention Bush’s name?

    “Al Qaeda and insurgent groups are growing from increased support from former moderates who were radicalized due to the war”

    You don’t think they were radicalized before the war?
    Have you forgotten about the Iranian embassy takeover?
    Have you forgotten about our embassy in Beirut being bombed in 1982?
    Have you forgotten about the Marine barracks in Beirut being blown up in 1983?
    Have you forgotten about the Achille Lauro being seized in 1985?
    Have you forgotten about the West Berlin disco being bombed in 1986?
    Have you forgotten about flight 103 blowing up over Scotland in 1988?
    Have you forgotten about Hussein invading Kuwait in 1990?
    Have you forgotten about the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993?
    Have you forgotten about the savage treatment of American troops in Somalia in 1993?
    Have you forgotten about the car bomb in Saudi Arabia killing 5 Americans in 1995?
    Have you forgotten about the U.S. Air Force housing complex being bombed in Saudi Arabia in 1996?
    Have you forgotten about the U.S. embassies in Kenya & Tanzania being bombed in 1998?
    Have you forgotten about the USS Cole being bombed in 2000?
    Have you forgotten 9/11?

    “All the war is doing is strengthening al Qaeda and Iran while weakening US support in the region”

    Whose support in the region did we have then lose because of the war?

    “Evaluation of the evidence with regards to Kerry’s war record is not based solely on whether someone was on Kerry’s boat”

    How convenient when that person is supporting kerry but when they are not, all we hear from you liberals is “but he wasn’t even on kerry’s boat”

  24. 24
    michael says:

    “Now that your junior high classes are done for the day, please tell us why you like Bush so much?”

    Because after being attacked by these ragheads for 25 years Bush finally stepped up and declared war on them. This war should have started back in the 80’s! I learned that today in my freshman history class.

    “So far, you have shown the logic of a 12 year old”

    And you can give us an example?

    “How about the strategy of waging a war without any plan to win the peace”

    Gee I didn’t realize that you were party of the team that strategized with the Generals?

    “How about lieing to go to war”

    No one lied.

    “Do you really believe Iraq had WMD?”

    Yes! They used them on their own people.

    “Do you really believe Iraq had anything to do with 911?”

    Nope, but they did have terror training camps in northern Iraq.

    “How do you feel about Bush letting bin Laden get away at Tora Bora?”

    How do you feel about Clinton letting bin Laden get away in Afghanistan?

  25. 25
    Ron Chusid says:

    We know he botched the line;. That’s what the whole issue has been about. In full context it is obvious he was talking about Bush, not the troops. He frequently speaks of Bush getting stuck in Iraq. The prepared text verifies that. Your argument that Kerry is attacking the troops based upon what is clearly a misinterpretation of what he said is extremely lame, and even most Republicans have backed away from this lie. Imagine if we took every Bush gaffe literally. The guy’s actually “admitted” that he is working to harm the country. Obviously that was not what Bush intended, and nobody would claim Bush admitted to harming the country based upon him messing up a line.

    Your list of terrorist attacks is irrelevant. The point remains that the goal is to weaken or destroy al Qaeda, but multiple studies have shown that the war has strengthened al Qaeda. Denying the facts does not change reality.

    “He wasn’t on Kerry’s boat” is hardly the extent of the refutation of the lies. There’s a tremendous amount of information from the military record and numerous witnesses which verify Kerry’s account. There is no longer a controversy here. It is simply a case of whether you want to accept lies because you dislike Kerry.

    You can ignore reality with regards to Kerry’s record and with regards to terrorism all you like, but none of your nonsense changes reality.

  26. 26
    Ron Chusid says:

    WIth regards to your answers to battlebob, you are still ignoring reality. You need to study what has actually been happening as opposed to parotting right wing talking points which have all been disputed.

    It’s not nexessary for battlebob to be with the generals to know there was no plan. If this isn’t obvious from what is going on, read any of many accounts of the build up to the war, such as Fiasco or State of Denial.

    It’s also clear from the evidence that Bush lied. He wanted to go into Iraq even before 9/11 and cooked the intelligence reports to justify it. Even the US government’s own studies admit there was no meaningful WMD in Iraq at the time of the war. Previously used WMD which had been destroyed does not justify the war.

    It is the war which turned most of Iraq into terror training camps.

    Bush is using terrorism for politcal gain and has botched any actual fights against terrorism. It is the Democrats who have taken the issue seriously, not Republicans. John Kerry wrote a book warning about the dangers of terrorism before 9/11.

    Clinton attempted to go after bin Laded but it was the GOP Congress which blocked him. At least he tried. Clinton passed on recommendations to the Bush administration for fighting al Qaeda and Bush ignored them. Similarly he ignored warnings about 9/11 before it occured and might have been stopped.

    After 9/11 Bush played right into bin Laden’s hands by going into Iraq, plus Bush botched an excellent chance to get bin Laden at Tora Bora.

  27. 27
    michael says:

    “In full context it is obvious he was talking about Bush”

    Whose context? Yours? Listen, I don’t care what you think he meant to say. He said what he did and it will forever be used against him. Get over it!

    “Your list of terrorist attacks is irrelevant.”

    It’s completely relevant. You make it sound as if it’s the war that is creating terrorism. Terrorists have been killing Americans for 25 years prior to our invasion of Iraq!

    “There’s a tremendous amount of information from the military record and numerous witnesses which verify Kerry’s account.”

    And there is a tremendous amount of information from military records and witnesses which refute his account. How about the letter from President Carter’s Secretary of the Navy awarding kerry his honorable discharge based on a review of a “board of officers” 5 years after kerry’s separation and only after Carter’s amnesty program was put in place. When kerry realized how damning that letter was, it was pulled from his website!

    “You can ignore reality with regards to Kerry’s record”

    Re read my last comment? That’s reality!

  28. 28
    michael says:

    “It’s not nexessary for battlebob to be with the generals to know there was no plan.”

    How do you know? Those are leftwing talking points.

    “It’s also clear from the evidence that Bush lied”

    No it isn’t. More leftwing talking points. But maybe you have a secret document that CBS forged to prove me wrong?

    “It is the war which turned most of Iraq into terror training camps.”

    Isn’t that nice? We got them right where we want them!

    More later!

  29. 29
    Ron Chusid says:

    Left out part of the paragraph on the terror training camps in Northern Iraq–The camps which the right wingers get so excited about before the invasion were such tiny things that even the Bush administration said they weren’t worth risking any US lives over at the time. Estimates were that there were around 150 people involved at the time. Who knows how many terrorists have been trained in Iraq since it was turned into a terrorist play ground by Bush.

    These camps in Northern Iraq were also not in parts of Iraq under Saddam’s control, so they hardly can be used as justification for attacking Saddam.

  30. 30
    Ron Chusid says:

    Michael,

    No, its not my context. It is the context of what Kerry was actually saying. You can misintrepret what Kerry said all you want, but you are still lying.

    The statements on the lack of a plan and Bush lying are not left wing talking points. They are well established facts.. See the books I mentioned and many more. You can deny the facts all you want, but the facts remain as tehy are.

    Sure there was terrorism before the war. The war, however made al Qaeda even stronger which is a foolish policy.

    “Isn’t that nice? We got them right where we want them!”

    You still miss the point. Israeli and Saudi studies both agree (perhaps the only thing they both agree on) that most of the insurgents in Iraq are peope who were radicalized by the war. We didn’t get them where we wanted them–we created a whole new country of radicals.

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